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Featured A Person Believes in Science by Faith if...

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by KerimF, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    It seems you could extend the idea to any human activity. The minute we stop living in caves, pile up wood to live in and start growing crops and animals, we are subduing nature.
     
  2. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    That's why it was one of the first things God said to humanity in Genesis 1:28

    "
    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."
     
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Science can only try to understand nature. They cannot control it. It is too huge.

    Wikipedia tells me that the weight of ordinary matter in the observable universe is about 1.5×10 raised to power 53 kg (try to put 52 zeros to 15), and ordinary matter is about 5% of the whole universe.
    Total weight: 3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 kg.
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    It could even be interfaith war. :D
     
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  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    What do you expect from religious literature? False ideas only. Can we control a tornado, a typhoon, a tsunami, a earthquake, a flood, a drought, a fire or a disease? What can we control?
     
  6. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    So mature just means adult. Thanks for that clarification.:)

    As to what one see on TV, what is reported about scientific topic in the media, no, I do not think one should accept everything they hear without some skepticism. The media has a terrible time covering science topics.

    However, on a scale from gullibility, reasoned skepticism, and irrational skepticism, I think you are leaning towards irrational skepticism. Based on comments here and elsewhere you seem to indicate a disbelief in HIV/AIDS and men having landed on the moon. Not everything is a lie or massive conspiracy. I'm not sure how to get you back to just a healthy level of skepticism.
     
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  7. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    So we have a big learning curve to overcome!
     
  8. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    More and more... it's a learning curve.
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    That takes you to Eastern religions, @AlexanderG . Do you really exist? You are a bunch of atoms and atoms are a bunch of sub-atomic particles (or waves), whatever you call them. And that is perturbation in an electric field. And your sub-atomic particles are none other than virtual particles and they can disappear in a puff. So where do you exist? It is a quantum existence. Buddha said it has no substance (anatta), Hindus say it is 'maya' (illusion).

    [​IMG]
     
    #89 Aupmanyav, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Science today two types.

    Medical biological. Occult nuclear.

    Medical says percentage water bio life microbial bacterial supported backdrop of human form.

    Knows atoms etc not bacterias or microbes as they are not theoried as reactive converting by mass. Instead the wrong mass bacterial in water our life's backdrop destroys human flesh.

    To observe to contradict natural is the human occult theist.

    Nuclear converting removed bio flesh also. What he compared. He says radiation is the backdrop. But that is in creation and not life.

    Where his evil thoughts destroyer as destroyer wisdom by destroyer theorising describing ignores reality.

    We taught a destroyer mentality in humans existed that owned our destruction. A human warning for human law to be implemented to keep life safe by human law.

    Practical reasoning why law for humans involved scientific argument about God and why God was used to claim by swearing the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    You seem to have forgotten human history as fact.
     
  11. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    It is getting more complicated these days. Take SARS-CoV-2 crisis for example. The former President of the United States and other Republicans claim it was leaked from a Chinese lab. China retorts that it originated in the United States. Some news organizations parrot their governments party line. I think on some topics it is getting harder and harder for the average Joe to get news that isn't inflated or hyped in some way.
    Not everyone has the background or time to keep up with all the different scientific journals.
     
  12. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    I wish God had said "practice responsible resource management", "do not ruin this planet, its the only one you get", "Don't over-fish or you'll be without any meat on Friday".
     
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  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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  14. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    "replenish" does not mean overpopulate/overfill.
     
  15. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    I guess he wasn't explicit enough.
     
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  16. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Member

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    Your appeals to mystical pseudoscience are irrelevant to my point. To be thinking, you must exist in some capacity. Whether you're in fact a bunch of atoms, a quantum field, a dualistic entity of body and spirit, a disembodied soul, a simulated consciousness in the matrix, or any of the other infinite possibilities, in every case you would still exist. It doesn't matter what form that existence takes because my point would still stand.
     
  17. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Since you are Christian, you are relying on the Bible to based your faith in your belief.

    The problems here are multi-fold, that tell us, the Bible are not very reliable.

    For one, much of OT books were originally composed, not contemporary to the events that those books were narrating, like from Adam in Genesis to Solomon in 1 Kings, all the events it claimed, including the lives of Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samson and David, we have no one contemporaries writing about these people.

    Fo instance, there are no books, parchments, papyri, scrolls, clay tablets, inscriptions in tomb walls, walls of houses, palaces or temple, that contemporarily narrated these stories, dated to those periods.

    We only started finding evidence of writings, possibly as early as king Josiah’s reign, with the Silver Scrolls in a cave that served as tomb at Ketef Hinnom. These tiny scrolls contained a small passage from Numbers 6, the Priestly Blessing. The scrolls as well as other objects found in the tomb, have been dated somewhere between 630 BCE and 590 BCE, that’s between the reign of Josiah and just before the capture of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.

    So the oldest evidence was definitely not written by eye-witness like late Bronze Age Moses.

    There are no Bronze Age sources of original writing by a man and prophet who supposedly led Israelites in the exodus in the 15th century BCE.

    And you don’t find start to find more evidence, until the Babylonian Exile and their returns in the 6th century BCE and later centuries. Even with the book of Daniel, we have no evidence such book existing, until the early 2nd BCE.

    Much of the Old Testament books weren’t written by eyewitness authors.

    And you don’t have much evidence from the Exile period, until they started translating those biblical books into Greek, and the
    discovery of the scrolls from Qumran, the Dead Sea scrolls.

    Even with the New Testament, especially when it come to the 4 gospels, there are no evidence that they were written contemporary to Jesus’ ministry and post-crucified, like within 10 years. The oldest gospel is supposedly the gospel of Mark, but that were composed somewhere around 65 to 75 CE, those of Matthew’s and Luke’s around the 80s, and the gospel of John from 90s.

    So none of these gospels were written contemporarily to Jesus’ departure within 10 years of Jesus’ resurrection, so not eyewitnesses’ accounts.

    And those gospels were originally anonymously, and those names of the 4 evangelists - Mark, Matthew, Luke and John - were only attributed to those gospels by church in the early 2nd century BCE.

    Whoever were those real authors were, we will never know, because of the massive church traditions and legends surrounding the 1st century apostles and disciples, it is hard to distinguish history from fabricated fictions.

    Second.

    But the problems are just about finding contemporary (and original) sources to the biblical events.

    Only a fraction of the Old Testament are considered “history”, and those are mostly within the 2 books of Kings, where there are independent outside sources, eg the Assyrian annals of Assyrian rulers during the early half of 1st millennium BCE, that can verify some of the Iron Age kings of Israel and Judah.

    What we cannot verify in the books of Kings are those of Solomon’s reigns, his empire, his fabled wealth and the enormous numbers of wives he have, especially from foreign kingdoms, and we cannot verify any stories about the lives of prophets, like that of Elijah and Elisha in the books of Kings, especially concerning miracles.

    A lot of things written about, from Adam to Solomon are mythological. Especially things about any of these stories concerning about Bronze Age Egypt and Babylonia, cannot be verified by outside sources or by archaeological evidence.

    There are no Egyptian sources about Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses or Joshua being in Egypt, like the things they allegedly did.

    For instance, in Exodus 1, it claimed that Moses was born during the time of building Rameses, and in Exodus 12:37, Moses led the Israelites from Rameses. And according to 1 Kings 6:1, the exodus started 480 years before Solomon began building his temple, in the 4th year of his reign.

    As I said earlier, I don’t think there was any King by the name of Solomon, but based on the Kings, he ruled for 40 years, then the king was divided into two - Judah and Israel. So let’s say hypothetically he did reign between 970 and 931 BCE, then his 4th year would be 967 BCE. So based on what 1 Kings 6:1 say:

    That would mean the Israelites left Egypt from Rameses in 1447 BCE, during the reign of Thutmose II (1479 - 1425 BCE), and Moses was have been born in 1527 BCE, during the reign of Ahmose I (c 1549 - 1524 BCE and founder of the 18th dynasty) and his death in 1407 BCE in the reign of Amenhotep II (1525 - 1397 BCE).

    Not only the Exodus never given names of Egyptian rulers (pharaohs) of the times they stayed in Egypt, we know that Rameses exist as Pi-Ramesses, but it was built during the 19th dynasty by its 2nd king, Seti I (1294 - 1279) who started its construction and completed by his son Ramesses II (1279 - 1213 BCE). Pi-Ramesses was named after Seti’s father, the dynasty’s founder Ramesses I (1295 - 1274 BCE).

    Pi-Ramesses means the “House of Ramesses”, and it never existed in the 16th and 15th centuries BCE, during the 18th dynasty.

    The history of Seti and Ramesses II are well-documented, including records of their building programme in Egypt, constructing cities, palaces, temples and tombs. Pi-Ramesses was meant to be their summer residence.

    Pi-Ramesses was discovered at Qantir during the 1960s, and have been dated to 13th century BCE.

    Pi-Ramesses wasn’t Egypt’s capital, Thebes was.

    If I have to choose, which is more historical and archaeological reliable, between Exodus and Egyptian history/archaeology, then it would have to be archaeology and contemporary Egyptian records, not Exodus.

    Worse still, Joshua (book) claimed that Jericho was captured, destroyed and left abandoned after Moses’ death (1407 BCE). But archaeology have been dated abandoned since 1570 BCE.

    So Jericho was abandoned couple of centuries BEFORE Pi-Ramesses was constructed, HENCE contradicting both Exodus & Joshua.

    And Pi-Ramesses and Jericho are not the only places that the Old Testament got wrong.

    There is Genesis 10, about Egypt and the cities that Nimrod built, eg Uruk (Erech), Babylon, Nineveh and Calch (Kalhu). Genesis claimed that none of these places existed until after the flood. But Egyptian culture predated the Bronze Age dynasties, can be found in their artwork and cultures. And both Uruk and Nineveh are quite old, the oldest settlements dating respectively 5000 BCE and 6000 BCE, while Calch or the Assyrian Kalhu was constructed during the 13th century BCE, during the reign of Shalmanesser I (1263 - 1234 BCE).

    So unless Nimrod have lived over 4000 years and more, Nimrod don’t exist and he didn’t built anything.

    As to the gospels that we can be certain of it’s history, is the beheading of John the Baptist. Jesus may be a historical person, the details about his birth, his ministry and his resurrection, they cannot be verified.

    We have two different versions about Jesus’ birth, and in details, they don’t agree with each other. The only things they have in common are, Mary is the mother, he was born in Bethlehem and he was born when Herod the Great was still alive. Other than that, the Star, the massacre, the census, the angels witnessed by the shepherds are something that either didn’t happen and in the case of the census and governor of Syria, happened in the wrong time (it occurred in 6 CE, 10 years after Herod’s death, and only after Augustus turned Judaea into Roman province and banished Archelaus).

    So the Bible as a whole, isn’t very reliable at all.

    So you would definitely have to take the Bible, on faith alone.
     
  18. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The religious teachings said that when living humans men posed theory of David Goliath Phi inference they did not do God.

    O is owned by G spiral back to O. O DD split to_OO inheritance.

    Phi never did O DD. GOOD. Natural GOD.

    A human teaching for man.

    Man did dust fission. All chemicals was first. Notice ALL is a GOD discussion in science. FisH Sion second of the dust.

    So ALL in science of man was about Alchemy and gases and spirit.

    They did the second not the first.

    First natural was created formed by a GOD function movement. Spirit on the face of the deep in space.

    Man lied and broke the covenant of stone so God he said witnessed phenomena images that formed in the clouds of man in anti effect causes his giant self rewrote the law of stone by burning etching as new writing into stone.

    The cause effect of human science owned caused Phi fallout. Was by men in science by choice.

    Why you see burnt patterns in the ground into stone. GOD burning falling caused by man designer who caused it. Graduating into gas burning extra patterns removing stones presence.

    Falling out of man's science caused life changed in body. One bone rib removed out of his body.

    His thought anti of self man was the alien image fallen to the ground changed from an angelic self man image. Caused by man in science.

    So you can't heal Phi and put atmosphere back as no Phi as a lying theist. Phi attack was stopped by causes cooling of gases and evaporation and heaven cooling raining flood the effect. To stop it meant no Phi fallout actually.

    Seeing gas mass and water mass is not Phi. Gods heavens as GOD and good owned gas spirit movement as heavens body.

    Exactly taught yet ignored.

    The human advice.
    The human warning.

    Bare faced is just stone owning no life support when the angry God fallout of man fall destroyed life on earth. Bare stone is the no life the exact status a history.

    A teaching of cause. Bare stone face today however is not the same old teaching. Another reason why you are wrong.

    Think as theism lying. After bare faced stone now are Phi patterns now on top of crops. Is after formation was living is not Phi healed. Science inferred Phi from bare earth burning healed and reformed life.

    Phi was stopped involving burning holes into stone by circles actually. Sink hole.

    The human science teaching.

    Spirit phenomena witnessed in occult UFO cause effects is fallout due to reflective causes. Man in self presence full body not just mind caused it. Anti status imaged back attacked the whole man not just your mind.

    Mind holy was the evil thinker owning a holy body

    By theory was by machine reactive burning earth gases. An effect.
    Reflective advice said I anti my own life. Learnt everytime he practices nuclear heavens science.

    Yet destruction was never anti life it was anti gods owned pre existing spirit gases.

    Science never owned nuclear presence in space as any beginning. As the status human science.

    He theories pretending he knew why it began in space was conversion yet it was never owned by humans. The actual real beginning.

    The only first beginning in creation.

    So why try to coerce us today just a human living on a planet?

    O earth as God ended as a planet.

    What it held inside is all owned. O planets history only in science.

    Gases out of stone cooled and changed by space pressure and cold.

    Stone heavens gases owned cold in its heavens.

    Science began burning consuming stone planet gases. Did it for a while until radiation released as a stone gas equalled evolved space gases removed cooling so it no longer owning spatial cooled evolution.

    They began to burn and fallout. Causes taught realised and known already. Totally ignored.

    The teaching science for science told you what you did and why you did it.

    Stone was never just a gas sitting in space cooling. It was mass cooling. Heavens as gas eventuated into being named a mass. It never began as any mass.

    The less of the son a baby to man scientists owned realisation.

    Unlike his non science first adult father an innocent baby invented science by his adult self. Gave away his innocent baby life beginnings.

    Part of the teaching ignored by human greed want and resources.
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    There is no mystery about what I have written. I do not allow mysticism to touch me. My belief does not permit it. What I mention is Science, Quantum Mechanics. Kindly read the Scientific American article that I have given the link for. What exists is a very serious question. It cannot be dismissed simply by what Descartes said, "I think, therefore I exist". Body and Spirit. Now, it is you who are indulging in mysticism. There is no proof for spirit or soul, not also for any God, or his sending his ministers to the world. I exist only as an illusion, it is not the truth. In some capacity - yes, as an illusion, a creation of mind and brain.
    And I see that you are one of those atheists who still believe in existence of soul. For me, it means a half-baked atheist. :D
     
  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    He never is. :D
     
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