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Featured A new theory for the creation of the universe.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Ted Evans, Aug 14, 2017.

  1. jhwatts

    jhwatts Member

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    None of the verses where God reply to Job, have any scientific merit. It just God sprouting nonsensical superstitions of his own "so-called" power. (I'm glad you recognize his existence.)


    Job 38: (31-32)

    31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? 32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28constellation%29


    There is science in it but you just aren’t looking for it.


     
  2. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    No I don't believe in that I never said I did. I
    Said the OP said that.
     
  3. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The actual date to the original composition of Book of Job is unknown, but scholars have pinned it down to anywhere between 7th century and 4th century BCE.

    So it is definitely wasn't written when the story was set, in the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age for civilisations and cultures in the Near East, in the periods of 3rd millennium and 2nd millennium BCE...so about 3000 to 1000 BCE.

    There are actually zero literary evidences (eg clay or stone tablets, papyrus scrolls, parchment in manuscripts or codices, inscriptions on walls or coffin) that any Israelite wrote anything in ancient Hebrew during the Bronze Age. We don't even have small fragments that date to any of that time, like from Genesis, Exodus, Numbers or Leviticus, dated to the 2nd millennium BCE, the supposed times of Abraham, Jacob, Moses and Joshua.

    All literary evidences showed that all the individual books, which Jews called the Tanakh and Christians called Old Testament, all have their roots in the the 1st millennium BCE, Iron Age. Most books were composed between 7th century and 5th century BCE.

    The earliest surviving text of anything relating to the Hebrew Torah or Christian Pentateuch, the so-called books said to be written by Moses, is the fragments known as the "silver scrolls", found in the cave of Ketef Hinnom. These badly damaged scrolls have been dated to 6th century BCE, so around the time some notable Jews were exiled in Babylon. The fragments are the only earliest extant texts containing a passage from Numbers 6, known as the Priestly Blessing (6:23-27).

    We know that in the Book of Ezekiel mentioned Job, but just because Ezekiel mentioned him doesn't mean much.

    According to the Babylonian Talmud, one of the rabbis wrote in the Tractate Baba Bathra 14b, that the Book of Job was written by Moses, himself. But like I said before, we have no literary evidences that any Hebrew text was ever written in the Bronze Age.

    As any work in the Talmud or other rabbinical literature, they are based on oral traditions, and lot of it are merely hearsay. The main purpose of Talmud and rabbinical literature, was to preserve the Oral Torah, and to provide exegesis and interpretations of the Torah's narratives and understanding of laws.

    But getting back to your points about constellations.

    If a large parts of OT bible, were written between 7th and 4th centuries BCE, then knowing the names of some constellations are meaningless, since Homer writing The Odyssey in the 8th century BCE, and Astronomia (dated to 8th or 7th century BCE) said to be written by Hesiod, have already listed the constellations and stars of Orion, the Pleiades, the Great Bear, etc.

    Both the Babylonian and Greek astronomers have long known and invented the constellations, so just because it is listed in Job, a text that might be written during 6th century Exile in Babylon, or during 5th to 4th centuries during the construction of a new temple in Jerusalem, doesn't make these allusions to the constellations - "scientific".

    The Bronze Age Babylonian astronomers - not the Neo-Babylonians of the Iron Age who were responsible for destroying the temple and exiling Jews - have already known the Pleiades stars as early as 16th century BCE, on what is called the Nebra Sky Disk. The Babylonians called them MULMUL, meaning "star star". Other cultures given different names to the Pleiades.

    Second, why does Job 38:32 mentioned "Mazzaroth"? You do you realise Mazzaroth is the planet Venus, and not a star, don't you?

    Mazzaroth is Jewish name for the morning star and evening star, which is Venus, but whatever you want to call them, they are not stars.

    Science is more than just mention or flowery descriptions of any natural phenomena or philosophical insight, it is explanation of WHAT they are, and HOW they work.

    None of the passages in Job explain anything. Job doesn't explain what stars are, nor why can see the light from these stars. The author don't even realise that our sun is also star, and yet it confuse the planet Venus as one.

    You really need to do better that, jhwatts.
     
    #183 gnostic, Sep 13, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  4. jhwatts

    jhwatts Member

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    I will respond to your post completely tomorrow but I just wanted to say that stating that "the actual date to the original composition of Book of Job is unknown" and "but scholars have pinned it down to anywhere between ...." is a giant contradiction.

    I would probably be more careful of how I made assertions. A glaring contradiction in the first line of your response is not good and has already done damaged to your credibility.
     
    #184 jhwatts, Sep 13, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  5. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    It is not a contradiction.

    They don't have exact date. Which is true.

    What I said is only approximate period of times that it could be written.
     
  6. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The oldest writings in Hebrew are couple of collection of inscriptions, both dated to the 9th century BCE...and neither of them had anything to do with the Old Testament.

    Both are written in Paleo-Hebrew, meaning ancient or old Hebrew.

    One artifact is the Gezer Calendar, which contain when very brief statements as to when to plant, sow, prune, reap, etc.

    [​IMG]

    It is a limestone plaque, discovered in 1908 at the ancient city of Gezer.

    The set of 10th century inscriptions is on the Zayit Stone, discovered at Tell Zayit, some 50 km southwest of Jerusalem. It is the limestone boulder, inscribed in 2 lines, containing only a total of 22 Paleo-Hebrew characters. And no one can determine what these inscriptions mean; the Zayit inscriptions are mostly gibberish.

    As I have mentioned earlier, the only writing that we have that pertained to the Old Testament, come from that silver scrolls (found at Ketef Hinnom) that I had mentioned in my previous reply.

    There may be older text than the silver scrolls, but without actual date-able book or scroll, it would seem that none of Moses' supposed books exist before the Iron Age.
     
  7. jhwatts

    jhwatts Member

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    I will argue with you on your dating of the book based on its context.

    In terms of age I would probably disagree with you. The context of the book seems to portray an age much earlier than the Bronze Age. The text seems to reflect a time with a much different climate than the time frame you infer for the location in the world.

    Job 6:16

    Job 38:29

    Job 37:10

    Job 9:30

    Job 24:19

    Job 37:6

    Job 38:22

    These descriptions in the text would seem to take place early Bronze Age or before, possibly after the melting of the Laurentide Ice Sheet in that region. The melting of the sheet brought warmer weather and therefore corresponds to the advent of civilization and Mesopotamian region. Considering the actual context of the book, the time it seems to reflect could extend into the early Bronze Age or possibly before that. Possibly up to 8000 BCE. They are many references to cold weather and few to things related to warmer that's why I would place it shortly after the melting the Laurentide Ice Sheet.

    Second, why does Job 38:32 mentioned "Mazzaroth"? You do you realise Mazzaroth is the planet Venus, and not a star, don't you?

    (Yes, and also commonly translated as the Zodiac, hence implying a knowledge and understanding of the movement and positioning of the stars. A knowledge understanding of the movement of stars and predicting their movements is science to a degree. )
     
  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You cannot date books based on context, because anyone can write anything about the past.

    When do you think the Flood occur?

    How many years do you think there are between the Flood and the birth of Abraham?

    I am asking because I am confused to as to why you think Job was set before the Bronze Age.
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Which any shepherd tending his sheep outside on a clear, dark sky would have eventually noticed. Arcturus is one of the brighter stars in the sky. Orion is one of the brighter constellations. The Pleiades are an easily seen star cluster that has long been used to test eyesight. Knowing about these was NOT a supreme accomplishment. Anyone before light pollution became common would have known about them that cared to look up. For that matter, knowing about the Zodiac (and the motion of the planets in that Zodiac) was also ancient knowledge going back to early Babylonian times (if not before).
     
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