a muslim specialist of hindouism

[A-ManESL]

Oh, and about the OP. Have you heard of Rene Guenon? He is not a very easy read, and I guess one does not necessarily agree that he is a Muslim, but he certainly seems to qualify to me.

An excellent recommendation. I second it to the OP. And he was a Muslim as far as I know.

Regards

 

[Sahar]

Actually, yes, that is indeed the case.

You are a Muslim, so I trust that you are well aware that even a religious tradition that was pure and healthy at its conception may lose its way along time. Word reached me that Islam teaches that exactly that happened with Judaism and Christianity.

I happen to agree. However I don't believe that the Muslim Tradition (I will not call it Islam because it seems to me that "Islam" is more properly the name of a Higher Ideal that may well not actually exist on the surface of Earth), which aims to preserve and correct the religious teachings of those two Traditions, did quite succeed at that.

Unfortunately, the Muslim Tradition repeated and if anything emphasized the mistake that IMO makes the Abrahamic Faiths inherently deserving of criticism: it teaches people to trust Doctrine and to be obedient and submissive. Unfortunately, submission is anathema to religious wisdom.




Hopefully I made myself more clear above. If that is what you asked, I mean.

Luis, from this post I understand that non Abrahamic religions don't contain what make them deserve to be criticized (degradation is not needed). Whereas Abrahamic religion deserve this for inherent elements in them. This is very biased and unfair stance. Why would any belief or religion be free from being subjected to criticism? Why would we assume that if religion X is criticized it's because of its inherent mistakes but when religion Y is criticized it's only because out of hate, crudeness and love of degradation?

Your argument about the need of religion to stand against fundamentalism or trusting the doctrine contains much contradiction.
If you already accept a set of beliefs, why would you stand against these beliefs that you already accepted?
Accepting these beliefs then standing against them is nothing but schizophrenia. Why would Islam or other religion call for this exactly? Why would a religion call its followers for standing against its fundamentals and principles?
Either you accept them or not. Either you're a Muslim or not.
If religion taught people to distrust its "doctrine", then it means it calls people not to follow it in the first place.
If you believe in a value like you should help your neighbour, how come you distrust this value at the same time? And if you fully accept this value and teaching, does this mean you are devoid of intellect and wisdom?

Lastly, if Islam is a higher ideal that can't exist on earth, then Muslim tradition refers to what? I need a definition.

 

[A-ManESL]

A-manESL a question for you. Is it true that Muslims want to make India into an Islamic state? Or do Muslims not mind living under a Hindu rule? Because if the first is the case, try to look at it from a Hindu POV. India is Hinduism's native homeland. They have fought and died for it many times. Hinduism is in a sense the life-blood of India.

This is simply not true. Muslims in India do not want to make India into an Islamic state. And India is not under Hindu rule, what gave you that idea. It is a secular country. The previous President was a Muslim, the current Prime Minister is a Sikh and the head of the ruling party is a Christian. Moreover the fact that the country has no state religion and is a secular country is written in its constitution.

Furthermore, a majority of Indian Muslims are native converts. And to separate them from Hindus on the basis of "whose homeland is this" in incorrect. There is a unity in diversity in Indian culture which engulfs various cultures, religions and ways of life. Indian Muslims are just as much part of this cultural collage as Hindus are.

Regards

 

[Sahar]

Islam is based on naql (texts) and ‘aql (intellect). Some people just have the texts – we call them naql-heads.
- Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

‘Ilm (knowledge) without ‘aql (intellect) is like having shoes with no feet. And ‘Aql without ‘ilm is like having feet with no shoes.
- Imam Ali

 

[LuisDantas]

Luis, from this post I understand that non Abrahamic religions don't contain what make them deserve to be criticized (degradation is not needed). Whereas Abrahamic religion deserve this for inherent elements in them. This is very biased and unfair stance.

It sure is. Non-Abrahamic religions are certainly not free from Fundamentalism.

What I am saying that that Abrahamic Faiths usually have a very poor showing at avoiding it, not that they have a monopoly on it. Unfortunately, a sizeable percentage of Abrahamists actually take pride on their Fundamentalism.

Why would any belief or religion be free from being subjected to criticism?

I can't think of any good reason myself. Criticism is needed to keep Faiths honest.

Why would we assume that if religion X is criticized it's because of its inherent mistakes but when religion Y is criticized it's only because out of hate, crudeness and love of degradation?

It is best not to assume, but rather to find out instead. Of course, it is not an either/or situation. Real shortcomings may exist along with hate, rudeness and degradation, and may even open the way for an underserved degree of same.

Your argument about the need of religion to defend against fundamentalism or trusting the doctrine contains much contradiction.

Point it to me then, please.

If you already accept a set of beliefs, why would you stand against these beliefs that you already accepted?

So that I learn to improve them, basically.

Accepting these beliefs then standing against them is nothing but schizophrenia.

That is probably true for some very specific beliefs, or some sorts of criticisms. But not in the general case. Questioning begats trustworthness.

Why would Islam or other religion call for this exactly? Why would a religion call its followers for standing against it's fundamentals and principles?

I don't know that it would, at least not in those exact terms.

Either you accept them or not. Either you're a Muslim or not.

Blind acceptance, however, is generally unhealthy. All the more so in religious matters.

If religion taught people to distrust its "doctrine", then it means it calls people not to follow it, in the first place.

Not really, although it depends on what exactly you mean by distrust. The best kinds of faith are those that were attained by challenging belief.

If you believe in a value you should help your neighbour, how come you distrust this value at the same time? And if you fully accept this value and teaching, does this mean you are devoid of intellect and wisdom?

Not necessarily. One may have questioned it and found it worth keeping. Indeed, that is IMO the desirable course of action.

Lastly, if Islam is a higher ideal that can't exist on earth, then Muslim tradition refers to what? I need a definition.

Muslim tradition, which I usually call Islam out of habit, is what does actually and demonstrably exist among those who love Islam. It is the painfully non-perfect, non-transcendent (but often admirable and highly inspiring) body of practices, beliefs, deed and people that aim to follow Islam.

 

[Sahar]

Who talked about blind acceptance? Or accepting a religion without questioning?
To accept a religion out of free will, of course there will be a stage of questioning. But once you accepted it, it means you are convinced with it and trusted it. You can't have the two conditions together. When you distrust it, it means you earned a new status and position.

This what Islam teaches. It teaches that your acceptance of it must be out of free will, any kind of pressure to follow the religion, is not accepted. The way to accepting the religion is through our intellect and knowledge. That's why the Qur'anic arguments to accept its message are intellectual. Urging people to think, reflect and have knowledge is the cornerstone of its arguments.

 

[Sahar]

Muslim tradition, which I usually call Islam out of habit, is what does actually and demonstrably exist among those who love Islam. It is the painfully non-perfect, non-transcendent (but often admirable and highly inspiring) body of practices, beliefs, deed and people that aim to follow Islam.

So what is Islam then? What does out of habit mean?

As I said using loose terms like fundamentalism is not helpful. Fundamentalism to me (in the context of religion) is adopting and following the fundamentals of the religion. This is what makes me a Muslim.

 

[alishan]

yes or a hindou who become muslim , whatever

just want somebody who master hindouism theory and can make comparaison with other religion for example Islam.

 

[Riverwolf]

yes or a hindou who become muslim , whatever

just want somebody who master hindouism theory and can make comparaison with other religion for example Islam.

Why not someone who's currently Hindu? (And why do you keep saying "hindou"?)

 

[LuisDantas]

So what is Islam then?

Far as I can tell, it seems to be actual Transcendent Perfection. Muslims don't seem to believe that it does exist in this world, except perhaps in very specific people. I've never seen a Muslim claim that a Islamic Country does or did exist, for instance.

What does out of habit mean?

In that context, it means that I am aware that Muslims don't usually think of Muslim Practice as being Islam itself, but I certainly do.

As I said using loose terms like fundamentalism is not helpful.

Loose? Fundamentalism is a very specific term. It is the attitude of believing that the core, written, literal tradition of a religion is helpful in keeping it pure and worth of practice.

It is opposed by the belief that religion is a human practice and must be kept and changed by humans according to their best judgement.

Fundamentalism to me (in the context of religion) is adopting and following the fundamentals of the religion. This is what makes me a Muslim.

By that definition, I guess I would be a fundamentalism as well. But I have a hunch that you wouldn't agree with me about that is fundamental to a religion.

 

[A-ManESL]

yes or a hindou who become muslim , whatever

just want somebody who master hindouism theory and can make comparaison with other religion for example Islam.

You can read works by Rene Guenon a.k.a Abdul Wahid Yaha). I havent personally read him, but I have heard great things about him. This article, which actually is a commentary of ideas developed by his students, might give you a brief overview of his approach.

Here is another direction for you, also.

Admittedly you are taking on a difficult project though. If you could narrow your field a bit, maybe you would find more material. For example this book compares Sufism and the Bhakti movement from Rumi and Ramakrishna's prespective.


Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Who talked about blind acceptance? Or accepting a religion without questioning?
To accept a religion out of free will, of course there will be a stage of questioning. But once you accepted it, it means you are convinced with it and trusted it. You can't have the two conditions together.

Oh yes, you can trust and question at the same time. And indeed one should and perhaps ought to.

When you distrust it, it means you earned a new status and position.

Does it? What would those be?

This what Islam teaches. It teaches that your acceptance of it must be out of free will, any kind of pressure to follow the religion, is not accepted. The way to accepting the religion is through our intellect and knowledge. That's why the Qur'anic arguments to accept its message are intellectual. Urging people to think, reflect and have knowledge is the cornerstone of its arguments.

With all due respect, I have read a lot of arguments for Islam already, and I don't remember ever seeing a single one that I consider intellectual. Most are essentially commentaries and interpretations of the Sacred Quran.

 

[Sahar]

Far as I can tell, it seems to be actual Transcendent Perfection.

Oh, how this transcendent perfection is achieved?

Muslims don't seem to believe that it does exist in this world, except perhaps in very specific people. I've never seen a Muslim claim that a Islamic Country does or did exist, for instance.

If there wasn't an Islamic countries, does this mean there are no Muslim persons who follow Islam?

Loose? Fundamentalism is a very specific term. It is the attitude of believing that the core, written, literal tradition of a religion is helpful in keeping it pure and worth of practice.

It is opposed by the belief that religion is a human practice and must be kept and changed by humans according to their best judgement.

If religion is changed according to humans judgment, it would mean there is no religion in the first place. If Islam is characterized by this and that, and if this was to change, it wouldn't be Islam anymore.

With all due respect, I have read a lot of arguments for Islam already, and I don't remember ever seeing a single one that I consider intellectual. Most are essentially commentaries and interpretations of the Sacred Quran.

Of course, my knowledge and my ability to judge can't be compared to yours but I was speaking about the Sacred Qur'an which I assume would be the source of Islam the transcendent perfection.

 

[Madhuri]

Well, many non-Abrahamics are very crude and degrading towards Abrahamic religions.

Not all people are crude and degrading of other religions. Only some people are, some immature people. It comes across as very immature when a person behaves this way.
And for the record, the post of mine that you responded to was not meant as an insult, but as a fact. A-Man confirmed it with his post following mine. It's simple fact.

 

[alishan]

yes i know mister rene guenon i have red of him

i look for anybody who master hindouism (without speaking sanskrit or speaking sanskrit,belonging to hindouisme or not )

but i want to talk to him by chating , now rene guenon is dead

 

[LuisDantas]

Hindus here in this forum are well learned and very open. You could do worse than chatting with them. It is unusual to find a Hindu (previous or current) who will claim to have mastered Hinduism, however.

 

[chinu]

i am looking for a muslim who know very well Hindouism for exampl former Hindou who have become muslim.thanks

I am.


_/\_Chinu.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh, how this transcendent perfection is achieved?

You could perhaps ask that to Muslims, possibly in the Islam DIR... but from what I understand, the Muslim view seems to be that Islam is achieved by way of knowing God's teachings (mainly through the Quran, of course) and obeying His Will.

If there wasn't an Islamic countries, does this mean there are no Muslim persons who follow Islam?

Of course not. Such people do indeed exist.

If religion is changed according to humans judgment, it would mean there is no religion in the first place.

Would it? Not by my understanding of what a religion is, for whatever it is worth.

Religion can, should and must be changed according to one's better judgement, both at the individual and collective levels.

If Islam is characterized by this and that, and if this was to change, it wouldn't be Islam anymore.

You're not the first one to tell me that. To the extent that I understand it, I disagree.

Of course, my knowledge and my ability to judge can't be compared to yours

My ability to judge is nonremarkable. Perhaps you meant my eagerness?

but I was speaking about the Sacred Qur'an which I assume would be the source of Islam the transcendent perfection.

That seems to be the usual understanding of Muslims about the matter, yes. I happen to disagree, but then again I have never been a Muslim...

 

[alishan]

ah ok thank you chinus

do you speak sanskrit? are you belonging to hindouism?

iam Muslim belonging to soufism , iam very open to religion and respect all of them

i dont want any debate just knowing better hindouism

thanks

 

[chinu]

ah ok thank you chinus

do you speak sanskrit? are you belonging to hindouism?

iam Muslim belonging to soufism , iam very open to religion and respect all of them

i dont want any debate just knowing better hindouism

thanks

Alishan ji,

Thank you too so much,

From where do you belong ? i am from punjab,

I love to read about soufis & hering sufi songs sung on the hymms written by:

Hazarat baba bulle shah & Hazrat sekh farid sahib and many others,

And always exicted to learn more & more about them, or how they devloped their LOVE towards Allah or God, during their whole life time.

Very nice to meet you,

_/\_Your brother Chinu.