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Featured A Moral question on the nature of "Forgiveness"

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Father, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    God shall always balance his justice, never will it be too little or too much. Punishment shall be applied in proper measure whether forgiven or not. Since I am not the judge, I can only say what generally is true. If the murderer deserves to die in eternal sleep, damnation - he will.
    1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him round, and they carried him out and buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much. And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. 10 And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things.​
    This is no Sunday-school stuff - if you have done a deed that damns, there is no longer any forgiveness, you cannot repent any longer.

    The God of the OT is the God of the NT. He is scary as all can be: (James 2) "19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. "
    There is no getting around punishment, down to our words even.
    Matthew 5:22 . . .but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge‧hen′na.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I have to go back. So, if you murdered, you, as a christian, are no longer saved?

    Christ died for nothing?
     
  3. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    three years re-baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
    Many Raelians I think do have more respect for Satan. A Christian wouldn't want to make a mockery of the system by deliberately sinning. They know they would lose their integrity which is hard to get back. That demonstrates worth that a Christian's actions won't just be to sin all over the place. If they sin they feel bad and try to make restitution and gain forgiveness. The overall system is a plus to them and society... just think of all the charitable Christian groups, including Catholicism with Pope Francis.
     
  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    I don't even have to murder; all I have to do is practice deliberate serious sin, and I get damned. It might be adultery, fornication, idolatry, thievery. But, again, most people would not know if they had become damned or not; thus, all we can do is our best and hope we are OK, even if we might have committed what seems like a practice of sin.

    At times, one serious sin damns as you saw in the case of Acts that you just were given.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Since jesus died on the cross, the only person that scripture says "deserves" to die are those who blaspheme the holy spirit. If you blaspheme (murder, whatever) christ, christ forgave you by his dying on the cross. All you need to do is repent and change your ways.

    All the verses I quoted, the murderer only deserves hell, if you like (not my line of thinking-no one deserves anything) if he does not repent.

    It sounds like they were testing the holy spirit and didn't repent, so they suffered the consequences of their actions. ("Give up the ghost" sounds like he gave up out of fear rather than asking forgiveness)

    This has nothing to do with people who repent.

    That does not make sense. It means god judges you by your actions yet some christians say actions are not needed for salvation. So actions don't save you but they can kill you even though what is on earth will fade and your judgement is by faith in god not your rituals of trying not to sin.

    That is trying to be like jesus.

    This has no affect over me. I'll try to stick with the point.

    To me it sounds like

    1. Trying to be jesus (trying to be perfect so not sinning to warrant eternal judgement)

    2. Ignoring Christ's role in one's salvation: why one wants to be saved in the first place and the definition of repentance in relation to this life in contrast to the definition applied after christians are sent to be judged.

    What you call punishment, I call consequence of one's actions.

    Please re-read this.

    If I went to court for murdering someone, by law I would be convicted. I cannot help that. That is a consequence of my actions on earth. In this analogy, as a christian, I ask god to forgive me on a spiritual level so I can repent and change my life when I no longer limited by the consequences of my actions (no longer in jail). So, I pray, change my life, and never murder anyone again.

    A judge would never try me again for a crime I haven't commited when I already received punishment for the crime, sentenced, and released. He has no reason to.

    Unless I murdered again, by what logic do I need to be punished when my sins were forgiven by the blood of christ?
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Blaspheme the holy spirit only has one definition and one criteria.

    I found it! Okay.

    Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. ~Mathew 12:31

    I was reading the commentary on this site and it makes more sense now.

    1. The sin was against the Holy Spirit. The accusation was made by the Pharisees was not only against Christ; ultimately it was against the Holy Spirit who was performing the miracles through Christ.

    People who deny the works of christ's father....they deny the salvation given to them....they tell god he isn't god and so have you, that sin cannot be forgiven.

    The other sins you mentioned are that against christ because the sins you mentioned are not spiritual in scripture but earthly. It's "sins of man." That is why Christ came and died for you and forgave you because if you commit any of these sends, your repentance is your "get out of jail" card so you are forgiven.

    IF you do NOT repent, you will have an unclean heart. And those with an unclean heart as all the verses you quoted, will not be forgiven and will be judged.

    So the purpose is to lead a clean heart by living in a state of repentance. To say you don't commit grave sins and others do is playing god.
     
  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The reason the deliberate willful practice of serious sin damns - is - because it is blasphemy against the HS. Why? Because it is a blatant in the face of God sin and rebellion against all that his spirit inspired in the holy writings.

    Thus the simple verbal blasphemy that many think it is - it is not. Once this has been done in the eyes of God, the person is damned, be it murder, idolatry, immorality, etc.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    An unrepentant heart is blasphemy of the holy spirit (an act or word against god the father not his son)

    But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5

    Repentance is very important in scripture.

    Saying it is not is saying christ died for nothing.

    Also, why would anyone want to be christian if all their sins were not covered by the blood of christ?

    Edit.. interesting. I didn't know scripture was going to use the term "unrepented." Hmm, I must be on to something. :eek:
     
  9. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    That is why so many other kinds of sins are blasphemy against the HS when becoming a practice.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    When it is continuous without heartfelt repentance, yes, I understand your point.

    When a murderer (or whomever) repents and you're saying god does not hear his prayers, that's one, saying christ died for nothing and two, it's a "I'm better than worst sinners" mindset.

    I listed many scriptures that said otherwise.

    Unless you refer to the scriptures I'm posting and correcting me on it, I honestly don't understand why repentance for sins covered by christ are not heard. If that be the case, why in the world would someone come to christ if they knew they couldn't receive god's forgiveness for sins they may commit and will repent of?

    Doesn't make sense.
     
  11. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Once the point of damnation occurs because of a practice of sins, there is no more repentance. That is scripture, not me:
    Hebrews 10:26-31 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

    I don't make the rules, I just try to understand them and show them to those who ask.


     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You have to be more specific when you talk about murderers. There are christian murderers who do not willingfully continuous sinning and have repented. They are still called murders because they took a life. However, with love, I'm sure our feelings would change towards a human being regardless of what he or she is convicted of.

    These are the people I am talking about.

    You have murderers or serial killers who continue with their crimes.

    These are not the people I am talking about.

    Both have consequences to their actions. In my faith, we look at the good because everyone has a good human nature. It's not a yes or no; right or wrong; blessed or damn. Thank gosh.

    That mindset has made people left christianity and like religions. I honestly don't see the attraction to seeing people judge as a good thing regardless if it is under your control or not. Supporting it in and of itself is saying something about what you think about other people not just your willingness to spread god's word but your beliefs and motivations in doing so.

    It is an interesting observation to see on RF. People come to christ all the time. It makes me wonder why when the body of christ has such a negative mindset that new christians may find it hard to trust what god tells them about scriptures because they are given different views and scriptures of things god tells them are false.

    It is sad.
     
  13. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Now I can engage you in this subject.

    First off, I want to say that forgiveness and not getting punishment for the serious sin - are two entirely different subjects. Punishment shall always take place, but if repentant, as David was, the person will not be executed, only perhaps have many years of severe discipline.

    The blasphemy against the HS is not well understood by many. It is not just a verbal sin.

    Please read the following page. It is an old study. I have not had the time, or peace of mind to clean this site up in many years, still some of the material is still important. If you find something on that page you don't agree with, let me know.
    Link: >Truth Seeker - Unforgivable Sins<
     
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