A Moral Dilemma For Pro-Choice Liberals?

[FerventGodSeeker]

Oh, well, that makes it alright. Now we can hang out and eat cookies.

Sweet. I like peanut butter, you?

You chose to see my answer as invalid, and completely ignore my arguement.

I didn't ignore it at all, I responded to each of your posts thoroughly point by point. If there's a point I didn't respond to, please point me to it.

 

[Nanda]

I didn't ignore it at all, I responded to each of your posts thoroughly point by point. If there's a point I didn't respond to, please point me to it.

A barrage of "Pro-choice=pro-abortion=anti-life" no matter how many times I try to explain otherwise isn't much of an arguement, it's more like butting my head against a brick wall. I don't see much point in continuing.

Sweet. I like peanut butter, you?

I've lost my apetite.

 

[Draka]

Jesus is the light, and we are his followers. We are not of the night or darkness but we are of the light. Those who are of darkness are those who are of the World. Thus, the same is not true of everone.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Is that you? Charlie Brown's teacher? Wow. Is that why it sounds like this? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


Now, on to other matters:

:banghead3 :banghead3 :banghead3

Pro-Choice does NOT equal anti-life!!!!

Holy flying bull crap batman! Do some people just have rocks in their heads and are incapable of getting this????

"choice of what"..."choice of what"..."choice of what"? Choice of whatever that is that the individual person or couple feel is in the best interest in their lives. Whether that be going ahead with the pregnancy, adoption, or abortion. We are acknowledging that that option exists for some people and it is not upon us to make that decision for other people. We can sit back and know that we would not have an abortion. We can disaprove of why some people get abortions, but we know that some go through great lengths to get to that decision and it may be, what they consider to be, their only recourse. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, but it really is none of your direct business if Sally and Jack, who live across town from you and you don't know, decide that they want/need to get an abortion. To make it illegal for all because of the irresponsibility of some denies the procedure to those who may honestly need it. Whether you debate that need or not does not matter in the slightest to their situation or circumstances.

It is not anyone's else's business if Sally and Jack decide to abort but theirs. Just like it is not any one else's business if Gary and Kevin want to get married, or Sheryl and Vicki want to adopt 4 kids.

When will people realize that if it is not their business, if it has nothing to do with their life or the lives of their loved ones, then butt the heck out?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

A barrage of "Pro-choice=pro-abortion=anti-life" no matter how many times I try to explain otherwise isn't much of an arguement, it's more like butting my head against a brick wall. I don't see much point in continuing.

Each time you tried to explain I replied. I dunno what else you really want. We disagree, it's cool.

I've lost my apetite.

I can understand, abortions are disgusting.

 

[Nanda]

I can understand, abortions are disgusting.

So is hubris.

 

[lilithu]

Pro-choice...choice of what? Abortion. Thus, pro-abortion.

The sad thing is that I believe you honestly cannot comprehend the difference.

Pro-choice. Choice of what? ALL choices over one's own body. If a woman chooses abortion, I support her right to choose. If a woman chooses to bring the pregnancy to term, I support her right to choose. If a woman chooses to have 12 kids, I support her right to choose.

Pro-choice means pro-choice.

 

[lilithu]

You are anti-life just as I am anti-choice.

That's truly deranged.

If someone is anti-life, it means they against ALL life.
If someone is anti-choice, it means they are against ALL choice.

So fine, you're anti-choice. Step away from the computer and have a cookie. No, you can't disagree with me. You don't have a choice.

 

[Draka]

That's truly deranged.

If someone is anti-life, it means they against ALL life.
If someone is anti-choice, it means they are against ALL choice.

So fine, you're anti-choice. Step away from the computer and have a cookie. No, you can't disagree with me. You don't have a choice.

I exercise my right to choose to have a piece of leftover birthday cake instead of a cookie. I can do that. I'm pro-choice.

 

[Nanda]

I exercise my right to choose to have a piece of leftover birthday cake instead of a cookie. I can do that. I'm pro-choice.

If I support your right to go on the Atkins diet, does that make me anti-cookie?

 

[Booko]

http://www.drlaura.com/blog/2007/06/05/a-moral-and-ethical-dilemma-for-abortion-rights-supporters/

Where are these liberals? I've yet to meet them:

What a conundrum for liberals who support any and all abortions at any time for any reason under the rubric of “pro-choice” freedoms.

In the realm of logical fallacies, this one's known as a "straw man."

 

[Booko]

...if you dont want to have a child, dont have sex, if you do have sex deal with the results.

Tell that to someone who's been raped.

 

[Draka]

If I support your right to go on the Atkins diet, does that make me anti-cookie?

It makes you anti-really good fattening food, and I for one, could never speak to you ever again if you could be so heartless as to be against such wonderful food. Just because it is fattening doesn't mean it's evil. How could you support anyone's "right" to do such a thing to themselves as to deny such delicious food???

 

[doppelganger]

The facts on worldwide abortions:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Worldwide abortion data shows that stringent anti-abortion laws do not affect the rates of abortion. Economic development and prevalence of the use of birth control are the two major factors that determine the incidence of abortions in a population.

Now, anybody have any data on what effect outlawing abortion has on the severity of health outcomes for mothers?

 

[Booko]

I know a great number of agnostics here on RF who would disagree strongly with that statement.

I'd be one of them.

I'm quite agnostic in my theism, but I am hardly shy about voicing my opinion.

But look, Nanda, for those who see the world in black and white, there are no shades of grey. You might as well argue with someone who's colorblind about whether you should get burgundy window treatments. Seriously.

 

[Nanda]

It makes you anti-really good fattening food, and I for one, could never speak to you ever again if you could be so heartless as to be against such wonderful food.

Someone had better tell that to my big, fat ***...

 

[Booko]

Public policy should be based on morality.

OK. I'll go along with that.

Now...whose morality do we use as the basis of public policy?

However, abortion and smoking are two completely different things (thus why I went with a more parallel murder example). Smoking does not immediately lead to the ending of a life; abortion does. Smokers inflict the pain on themselves; no unborn child has ever asked to be aborted.

My life has been materially damaged and shortened because my parents chose to smoke.

I never asked for them to do that.

And I regard their choice as an immoral one.

And yet, I would not suggest that parents who smoke around their children be tossed in jail or treated as criminals.

You'll have to explain how. There are annually six million fewer abortions in countries where the practice is illegal than in places where it is legal. Whether that difference is due directly to such laws, is admittedly a matter of debate, as I said.

To start with, we've no idea what the per capita rate is in countries where abortion is illegal vs. legal. Tossing out raw figures like you did and just getting them called "fuzzy" -- well, um, yes...I commend Doppleganger on his courtesy and restraint.

 

[Draka]

Someone had better tell that to my big, fat ***...

Maybe mine can inform yours?

 

[Booko]

The facts on worldwide abortions:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Worldwide abortion data shows that stringent anti-abortion laws do not affect the rates of abortion. Economic development and prevalence of the use of birth control are the two major factors that determine the incidence of abortions in a population.

And yet, insurance plans in this company will cover prescriptions for Viagra but not for birth control.

What in tarnation does that say about us?

Nothing good, I'm sure.

Now, anybody have any data on what effect outlawing abortion has on the severity of health outcomes for mothers?

Only the data from the experience of having one die in my arms.

 

[lilithu]

Approximately 46 million unborn children are aborted every year. 46 MILLION, EVERY year. The numbers don't even begin to compare. Not even CLOSE.

My point is that you care more about the potential lives than the lives and suffering of those already born.

As for your numbers, yes, that's a tragedy. So as I said earlier, why don't you work to support women both financially and economically so that there is less pressure to have an abortion? Why don't you support comprehensive sex ed over abstinence only? We do. I would be quite happy to see the number of abortions go down to zero if possible, but not through force.

 

[doppelganger]

To start with, we've no idea what the per capita rate is in countries where abortion is illegal vs. legal. Tossing out raw figures like you did and just getting them called "fuzzy" -- well, um, yes...I commend Doppleganger on his courtesy and restraint.

I posted the data on per capita abortion rates. The data shows they are not significantly different in countries where abortion is illegal than in countries where it is legal. Thus, the data suggests that if abortion were illegal worldwide, there'd still be 46 million abortions!

The outcomes would be affected as the rate of death in legal abortions is 50 per 100,000 while the rate in illegal abortions varies from country to country but is estimated at between 200 to1000 per 100,000.

Now, if somebody were actually "anti-abortion" and "pro-life," they'd be aggressive advocates for social justice, and economic development throughout the world, AND they'd be a staunch supporter of sex education for youth and birth control education and availability, as the data shows these two factors are the biggest correlates to reducing abortions.

Thus, to be "pro-life" is not to be anti-abortion so much as it is to be pro-birth control and pro-social justice.