A Moral Dilemma For Pro-Choice Liberals?

[Nanda]

And for anti-lifers, I have the impression is EVERYTHING is about how right abortion is, and how no one should be able to tell them any different.

Anti-lifers, cute. Can I make up a cute, deragatory and completely inaccurate nickname for your side, too? I think I'll call pro-lifers "mommy killers" from now on.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Now, JayHawes, let me explain something for you. As you can see by my title, my avatar, and my previous post, I happen to be a mother. I care deeply for my son. I still cry over the loss of my daughters. To say that someone who is pro-choice cares nothing of babies and children and of their life is just complete absurdity. Let's makes this very clear. One can be pro-choice and they can be personally anti-abortion at the same time. Sound like an oxymoron, perhaps. Sound wrong to you, perhaps, but it boils down to these facts.

First of all, Frubals on a well thought-out post.

Fact: I could never see myself getting an abortion unless it was absolutely medically required to do so.

Fact: I don't agree with anyone getting an abortion for anything other than absolutely medically required to do so.

Fact: I understand that other people have different opinions than me about how abortion might be necessary in their lives, no matter how I might disagree with them.

Fact: To make abortions illegal it is basically asserting that the government has control over people's bodies when it comes to health and psychological matters. (and I know that I cringe at the thought of some guy in a government building telling me what I can and can't do with my own body)

I believe the government does have a degree of control over people's bodies when it comes to health and psychological matters. That's why drugs are illegal. That's why the court has the power to mandate that individuals must be sane before standing trial, and if they're not, mandate that they receive psychological treatment. That's why we have men's and women's bathrooms that the opposite sex are not allowed to enter. I hope we both can agree, it's generally bad when people are suicidal, and suicide should be prevented. Both legally and morally, you shouldn't be allowed to do whatever you want whenever you want.

Fact: Take away the legal options and abortions will still occur anyway, this time though, they will be on the sly and more dangerous.

This argument could be made of any immoral or illegal act. Crime occurs every day, that doesn't mean we should legalize everything because such things happen anyway. It means we should prevent those crimes and punish them when they occur.

Fact: Those who could not find someone to perform an illegal abortion might be left to their own devices to abort if they are that set on having an abortion and that could prove fatal for more than just the fetus (though why would you care you probably think they should die anyway)

This is much in the same vein as the previous "fact." The fact that people will go to great, even self-damaging, lengths to commit a crime or immoral act, does not mean that the said act should be allowed or legalized.

Fact: those who wanted an abortion but could not get one would be bringing into the world an unwanted child (and NOT all of those children are put up for adoption, some are abused or wind up dead anyway)

You're right, they aren't all put up for adoption...but they should be. This "fact" really isn't an argument against preventing abortions, it's an argument for mandating responsibility, which I agree with.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Anti-lifers, cute. Can I make up a cute, deragatory and completely inaccurate nickname for your side, too?

Your side already does..."anti-woman."

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

How many of those were illegal where they occurred?

According to Wiki, 26 million occur where abortion is legal, 20 million occur where it's not.

 

[Nanda]

Your side already does..."anti-woman."

And yet, I don't remember seeing that term used anywhere in this thread...

 

[doppelganger]

According to Wiki, 26 million occur where abortion is legal, 20 million occur where it's not.

How many of the 26 million would still occur if it were illegal where they occur?

Also, are you aware of any studies on the aggregate health outcomes for women for legal vs. illegal abortions?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

How many of the 26 million would still occur if it were illegal where they occur?

I dunno...how many murders occur every year in countries where murder is illegal? How many murders are prevented by anti-murder laws?

Also, are you aware of any studies on the aggregate health outcomes for women for legal vs. illegal abortions?

No, why?

 

[doppelganger]

I dunno...how many murders occur every year in countries where murder is illegal? How many murders are prevented by anti-murder laws?

Red herring. How could we study the effect that anti-abortion laws have on the incidence of abortion? Do you know if anyone has performed such a study?

No, why?

Well, there remains the possibility that even if one considers abortion the death of a human life, there could be more deaths and severely maimed and injured people from making abortion illegal than from making it legal. It doesn't sound like you've considered that possibility.

 

[Mathematician]

This isn't going anywhere. Abortion, more than subject of murder, is a matter of perspective: either you believe a woman has complete liberty over her body or she doesn't.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

And yet, I don't remember seeing that term used anywhere in this thread...

No, but it was stated that pro-lifers care more about fetuses than adults and children, that we infringe on women's "reproductive rights" etc...which is basically in the same vein. I've had enough abortion debates on RF to hear it all. I realize that you didn't use that exact term; I specifically said it in response to the term "anti-abortionist."

 

[Nanda]

I specifically said it in response to the term "anti-abortionist."

Yes, but there's a crucial difference here - you ARE an anti-abortionist. We are NOT "anti-life."

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Red herring. How could we study the effect that anti-abortion laws have on the incidence of abortion? Do you know if anyone has performed such a study?

It isn't a red herring at all, it's a direct parallel. How could we study the effect that anti-murder laws have on the incidence of murder? This line of questioning does nothing to damage the pro-life case, as I explained in my post to Draka. Crime and immoral activity will continue to occur regardless of whether or not we make such things illegal. That doesn't mean we should legalize them just because they keep happening anyways. It means we should work harder to prevent them and punish the perpetrators.

Well, there remains the possibility that even if one considers abortion the death of a human life, there could be more deaths and severely maimed and injured people from making abortion illegal than from making it legal. It doesn't sound like you've considered that possibility.

I have, and I believe I addressed it in my post to Draka. You're suggesting that we sacrifice millions of innocent lives on the chance (unestablished as of yet, as you seem to be as ignorant as myself) that it could help others. You realize that's basically what the crazy guy in Deja Vu said, right?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Yes, but there's a crucial difference here - you ARE an anti-abortionist. We are NOT "anti-life."

Since abortion is the termination of a life, and you're pro-abortion, that makes you...anti-life. If you'd like to directly turn it around call me anti-choice. I'm glad to take on the title.

 

[Nanda]

Since abortion is the termination of a life, and you're pro-abortion, that makes you...anti-life. If you'd like to directly turn it around call me anti-choice. I'm glad to take on the title.

Except that I already stated that I'm NOT pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Except that I already stated that I'm NOT pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice.

Pro-choice...choice of what? Abortion. Thus, pro-abortion.

 

[Mathematician]

Since abortion is the termination of a life, and you're pro-abortion, that makes you...anti-life. If you'd like to directly turn it around call me anti-choice. I'm glad to take on the title.

Do you support the death penalty? The Iraq War? The Afganistan War? Putting animals to sleep? Giving up billions of our country's money to make sure every child in the world is fed?

The "anti-life" claim is childish.

 

[Nanda]

Pro-choice...choice of what? Abortion. Thus, pro-abortion.

No. I respect a woman's right to choose. It is not, however, a choice I would make for myself. Therefore, pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I don't like abortion, I just see it's necessity.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Do you support the death penalty? The Iraq War? The Afganistan War? Putting animals to sleep? Giving up billions of our country's money to make sure every child in the world is fed?

The "anti-life" claim is childish.

Except that in this context we're not talking about the "life" of just anyone (adults, animals, etc), just as with "choice" we're not talking about getting to choose your own ice cream flavor. "Life" refers to unborn human life, and "choice" refers to the choice of abortion.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

No. I respect a woman's right to choose. It is not, however, a choice I would make for myself. Therefore, pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I don't like abortion, I just see it's necessity.

Choose what? Abortion. Thus, opposing the LIFE of the unborn child and ending it. Thus, anti-life. You are anti-life just as I am anti-choice. There's no reason to beat around the bush, that's just what it boils down to.

 

[Nanda]

Choose what? Abortion. Thus, opposing the LIFE of the unborn child and ending it. Thus, anti-life. You are anti-life just as I am anti-choice. There's no reason to beat around the bush, that's just what it boils down to.

I'm not "beating around the bush," I strongly disagree with you. Being pro-choice does not equate to being anti-life, no more than being an agnostic equates to being anti-god.