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A Moral Dilemma For Pro-Choice Liberals?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by FerventGodSeeker, Jun 30, 2007.

  1. Nanda

    Nanda Polyanna

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    Last time I checked, this thread was not about whether abortion is right or wrong.
     
  2. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

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    If you don't understand the complexity and differences of both issues, then I'm sure it is. :rolleyes:
    Two points.

    1.) I don't believe in God, so that's a moot point.

    2.) There's no biblical indication medically induced abortion is a sin. You just assume it is.
     
  3. Mathematician

    Mathematician Reason, and reason again

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    The moral dilemma for us pro-choicers is now this: we're murderers because someone disagrees with us. :sarcastic
     
  4. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    So why should a woman's "right" to kill a child trump the child's right to life?

    Children are not adults either, babies aren't adults either, fetuses are babies.
     
  5. Nanda

    Nanda Polyanna

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    Simple: A fetus is not a child. Now you'll say, "Yes is is" and I'll say "No, it isn't" and we'll continue this cyclical argument that has nothing to do with the OP.

    No they aren't.

    See?
     
  6. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

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    Just a few pics.


    1st trimester pic
    [​IMG]
    second trimester pic
    [​IMG]
    3rd trimester pic
    [​IMG]
    baby (mine to be exact)
     

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  7. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Yes, I would be saddened if someone chose to abort because the genetics of the foetus weren't up to snuff. Then again, I am saddened whenever anyone chooses abortion for any reason. It is not a happy occasion.

    BUT that has no bearing on my being adamantly pro-choice. No matter what, it is still the woman's right to control her own body.

    There is no moral dilemma here. Sounds like something that the anti-abortionists are fabricating.
     
  8. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    I have the impression that for anti-abortionists, EVERYTHING is about whether abortion is right or wrong. Strike that. For them, EVERYTHING is about abortion being wrong.

    1,500 dead in the Gulf Coast and still counting, due to the lack of available health care.
    Almost 3,600 U.S. soldiers dead in Iraq
    Around 70,000 Iraqi civilians killed
    Over 200,000 dead in Darfur

    Apparently, the foetuses are far more important than the lives of adults and children.
     
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  9. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

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    Now, JayHawes, let me explain something for you. As you can see by my title, my avatar, and my previous post, I happen to be a mother. I care deeply for my son. I still cry over the loss of my daughters. To say that someone who is pro-choice cares nothing of babies and children and of their life is just complete absurdity. Let's makes this very clear. One can be pro-choice and they can be personally anti-abortion at the same time. Sound like an oxymoron, perhaps. Sound wrong to you, perhaps, but it boils down to these facts.

    Fact: I could never see myself getting an abortion unless it was absolutely medically required to do so.

    Fact: I don't agree with anyone getting an abortion for anything other than absolutely medically required to do so.

    Fact: I understand that other people have different opinions than me about how abortion might be necessary in their lives, no matter how I might disagree with them.

    Fact: To make abortions illegal it is basically asserting that the government has control over people's bodies when it comes to health and psychological matters. (and I know that I cringe at the thought of some guy in a government building telling me what I can and can't do with my own body)

    Fact: Take away the legal options and abortions will still occur anyway, this time though, they will be on the sly and more dangerous.

    Fact: Those who could not find someone to perform an illegal abortion might be left to their own devices to abort if they are that set on having an abortion and that could prove fatal for more than just the fetus (though why would you care you probably think they should die anyway)

    Fact: those who wanted an abortion but could not get one would be bringing into the world an unwanted child (and NOT all of those children are put up for adoption, some are abused or wind up dead anyway)



    For these reasons I am politically pro-choice. I may not agree with what someone may do, but I realize that I have no right to control their own body.

    Oh, and you can expound scripture all you want to, all day long. Go right ahead. It doesn't mean anything to those who don't believe in it anyway. You can try to state how much the god you believe in is in disagreeance with something, but it doesn't mean jack to those of us who don't believe your god exists at all and that the book you quote from is not "holy" anyway.
     
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  10. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Nonsense. If you're going to use terms that loosely, you might as well say "Adults are infants".
     
  11. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Lifestyle decisions?? Do you think that when a single mother of two hungry kids decides to abort because she can't afford another mouth to feed that that is a "lifestyle decision"?? Do you think that when a terrified teen decides to abort because she's afraid of being ostracized by her classmates and others and has no idea how to raise a baby that's a "lifestyle decision"??

    Deciding whether to live in the city or suburbs is a lifestyle decision. I won't say that people never abort out of convenience or preference but I know that it is usually based on circumstance and perceived necessity.

    If you are so concerned about abortions, why don't you work to SUPPORT women in these situations, both financially and emotionally, instead of casting judgment on them?


    And when judgment comes, how will you tell God that you just cast stones instead of helping your neighbor in need?
     
  12. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Your argument is based on projecting emotions that don't exist. A foetus is oblivious to its own existence.


    That's really what it comes down to in the end, isn't it? Controlling who has sex and punishing people - actually, punishing WOMEN - if they do.
     
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  13. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    :clap
     
  14. NuGnostic

    NuGnostic Member

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    I don't support abortions after 22 weeks, but who am I to inflict this belief on anyone else.

    People who scream about the murder of babies have jackboots in their hearts, you should watch them.
     
  15. NuGnostic

    NuGnostic Member

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    You are aware according to Jewish tradition the soul only enters the child at birth. Abortion at any stage is okat.

    And the anti-abortion part of christianity, particularly the life begins at conception part, is relatively new. Even the Catholic church only started picked this up in last half of the 19th century.

    I can sympathise with you feeling that late term abortion is wrong but, if it is as I fear, you feel that abortion even in the first weeks of pregenancy I really cannot support you trying to force this on others. This is pure religious based.
     
  16. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I dunno. Would I really want a person like that raising some poor kid they resent because they're "undesirable"?

    I remain pro-choice, as usual. Now, mind you, I think this sort of thing would be a bad choice, but I still think it should be a choice.

    And I think there are perfectly legitimate cases where this would be the right choice. For example, I'm not sure having a kid with severe genetic problems would be the right thing to do.
     
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  17. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    No, they're not. Baby = infant.

    The term "foetus" refers to the developmental stage between implantation (of the embryo in the uterine wall) and birth.

    The term "infant" refers to the developmental stage after birth up until.... I don't know, actually, probably walking, at which point it becomes a toddler.

    The term you're actually looking for is child. "Children" isn't really a stage dependent term, altho we use it as such. (The stage dependent term is juvenile or youth.) Even when you are 40 and have your own kids, you are still your parents' child.

    For those people who view the foetus as their offspring, it is a child to them, and they would mourn its loss like any child.
    For those people who do not view the foetus as their offspring, it is not.


    It seems to me that when the rhetoric gets ramped up, both sides of the abortion debate ignore this genuine difference in perception.
     
  18. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    I do, but I fail to see how that creates a moral dilemma regarding my being pro-choice.

    I'm pro-choice because it's immoral to force a woman to bear a child against her will. Period. It's immoral regardless of how her will was formed, and regardless of how she arrives at her decision to abort.

    Whether a particular decision to abort is moral or not is not my concern; it's the concern of the woman making the decision. In many cases I might regret -- or even despise -- her decision, but I support her right to make it.

    Likewise, I believe that almost all varieties of Abrahamic religion are immoral, but I support the right of the individual to belong to one of those religions, however regrettable his decision might be.
     
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  19. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    And for anti-lifers, I have the impression is EVERYTHING is about how right abortion is, and how no one should be able to tell them any different. I guess we all have our own paradigms.:shrug:


    Approximately 46 million unborn children are aborted every year. 46 MILLION, EVERY year. The numbers don't even begin to compare. Not even CLOSE.
     
  20. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    How many of those were illegal where they occurred?
     
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