MD
qualiaphile
This guy should debate @paarsurrey, it would be epic popcorn material
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A look at Quran
- Thread starter Unes
- Start date
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- Tags
- quran flaws
MD
qualiaphile
Thank you Blue taylor for your response, and thank you Saint Frankenstein for your response.
Folks, I do not think with off the subject debate we can achieve anything substantial. I appreciate if we can focus on the merits of the flaws. I am sure we need to discuss them more thoroughly, and see if we can honestly establish them, or discredit them, or improve them. That would be much more constructive work.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
Folks, I do not think with off the subject debate we can achieve anything substantial. I appreciate if we can focus on the merits of the flaws. I am sure we need to discuss them more thoroughly, and see if we can honestly establish them, or discredit them, or improve them. That would be much more constructive work.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
Flaws in Quran
(Continued)
(Continued)
Just remember, even if I find only one flaw in any verse of Quran, that is sufficient to conclude that Quran is a hoax.
= = = = = = = 33
[21:109] If they turn away, then say, "I have warned you sufficiently, and I have no idea how soon or late (the retribution) will come to you.
[21:111] "For all that I know, this world is a test for you, and a temporary enjoyment."
[39:39] Say, "O my people, do your best and I will do my best; you will surely find out.
I think we all agree that phrases “I have no idea”, “For all that I know”, “I will do my best”, and so on, they cannot be word of God, and they must be word of Mohammad. But, the following verse says that Quran specifically is word of God. Now, the question is why words of Mohammad are mixed with words of God? So, either the following verse is false, or words of Mohammad should not be in Quran. Each of these verses is a flaw.
[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
= = = = = = = 34
[21:109] If they turn away, then say, "I have warned you sufficiently, and I have no idea how soon or late (the retribution) will come to you.
[6:135] Say, "O my people, do your best, and so will I. You will surely find out who the ultimate victors are." Certainly, the wicked will never succeed.
I discussed one aspect of these phrases in flaw #33.
Now, let us look at these verses from a different perspective. It is unacceptable that Omniscient God to use this evading tactic trying not to answer these questions with the authority of his own word. This is like when parents trying to avoid seeing a collection agent at their door, and they send their kid to the door, and telling their kid to say that their parents are not home. This hiding behavior is not suitable for Omniscient God. Each of these phrases is harboring a flaw.
= = = = = = = 35
[4:152] As for those who believe in GOD and His messengers, and make no distinction among them, He will grant them their recompense. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[39:39] Say, "O my people, do your best and I will do my best; you will surely find out.
Verse [4:152] suggests there is no distinction between God and his messengers. Then, the phrase “I will do my best” in verse [39:39] is too problematic for the Omnipotent God. The following verse shows the power of the Omnipotent God. Then the phrase “I will do my best” does not suit the Omnipotent God. This is a flaw.
[2:117] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth: to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
= = = = = = = 36
[7:11] We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.
[7:12] He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
In first verse God is referred to by “We” pronoun, and in the next verse God is referred to by “He” pronoun. Who is telling this story? This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 37
[7:12] He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
[7:13] He said, "Therefore, you must go down, for you are not to be arrogant here. Get out; you are debased."
[7:19] "As for you, Adam, dwell with your wife in Paradise, and eat therefrom as you please, but do not approach this one tree, lest you fall in sin."
[7:20] The devil whispered to them, in order to reveal their bodies, which were invisible to them. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree, except to prevent you from becoming angels, and from attaining eternal existence."
In verse [7:12] we read that the devil rebelled, and in [7:13] he was debased to earth. But in verse [7:20] the devil deceives Adam and his wife in the Paradise. The devil was debased to earth, what was he doing in Paradise? This is a flaw.
I heard it somewhere that the devil hided in a snake’s mouth and entered into Paradise. This part of story is not in Quran. Now, how snake could commute between earth and Paradise, that is another flaw.
Anyway, if the devil after he was banished to earth, he could sneak back into Paradise and deceived Adam and Eve, that means the Paradise was not secure. The failed security in paradise, that is another flaw.
God should fire the designer of the Paradise Security. But God was the designer of Heaven and earth. This bad design is another flaw.
But, I guess for a fairytale these technical flaws do not matter, after all, those illiterate nomad Arabs were too limited to question these flaws. And Mohammad could boast his story as the ultimate masterpiece in literature for all time. It seems the bigger is the lie, the better enduring power. For me a masterpiece story should not have any of these kinds of loose ends, especially when the writer is impeccable, and error free.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
Augustus
…
The historical Muhammed had a message to preach. A message that was, in part, critical of other religious beliefs. A message that was aesthetically pleasing and intended to persuade others to follow his teachings.
This is practically a definition of rhetoric.
If you look at teh medieval tafsir there was plenty of confusion. Tabari often offers 5-10 different interpretations of particular verses.
No I said it was Semitic style rhetoric, not Greek. This is why it often sounds 'strange' when translated into English as it doesn't follow the style of the Greeks which and later Romans which forms the basis of the Westren tradition.
My point wa that you treta itr as a work of rhetoric, rather than focus on a naive literalism as rhetoric contains features such as hyperbloe, metaphor, etc, that aren't intended to be taken absolutely literally.
Dear Augustus,
As you pointed out correctly for some verses of Quran there were plenty tafsirs from many scholars. These tafsirs happens when there is confusion in understanding of a verse, then in that case Islamic scholars try to clarify the confusion by giving their interpretations. For their interpretations the scholars usually use other verses of Quran trying to justify their interpretations. But it seems that you fail to understand, that in any of these tafsirs the scholars are NOT allowed to contradict any verses of Quran, on contrary they try to harmonize the confused verse with the other verses of Quran. ACTUALLY NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT ANY VERSES OF QURAN. EVEN MOHAMMAD WAS NOT ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT VERSES OF QURAN.
So, when you suggested : “As such, to view everything in it to be treated in a perfect lt literal sense is not how it was intended in its original” THIS STATEMENT IN ISLAM IS ABSOLUTELY A WRONG STATEMENT. EVERY VERSE IN QURAN WAS INTENTED TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR, but in practice some verses ended up in confusion, and tafsirs were meant to clarify those confusion.
My friend, verse [17:36] is crystal clear, and I do not see anybody could be confused about it. Since you have studied those tafsirs, have you ever found any scholar to CONTRADICT the clear meaning of this verse!? Tafsir means to clarify the confusion, and not the other way around!
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
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Augustus
…
You are hardly the first person to identify the problem of trying to reconcile different verses of the Quran with each other. Abrogation, exegesis via the Sirah and Hadith, contextual readings etc, have been going on for about 1300 years.
Muslims have plenty of answers to explain to themselves such issues, so your simplistic argument is unlikely to be persuasive to them. I don't think even the strictest Salafis take everything perfectly literally, never mind the majority of Muslims
Non-Muslims who are interested in the issue often want to understand the Quran as a historical document, free of the supernatural claims that built up over many centuries. They are free to see that, like all religions, Islamic theology evolved over time rather than emerging fully formed. They certainly have no need to interpret it in a perfectly literal sense, and a basic familiarity would show that it is not how the text was intended. All of these normative cliams you ared making aren't really useful in understanding it as historical text.
It's a bit like how Biblical literalism is anachronistic rather than reflecting the 'true' meaning of the Bible.
A more common translation of verse 17:36 is And pursue not that thou hast no knowledge of; the hearing, the sight, the heart -- all of those shall be questioned of. (36)
Dear Augustus,
I think I figured out the root causes of our disagreements. In your analyses you forgot about the Islamic Sword. And that differentiates my analyses of verses of Quran from those tafsirs that you have been reading from those bright Islamic scholars. Those Islamic scholars were not trying to be objective at all, their tasks, their motives, their intentions, and their objectives were to develop arguments (tafsirs) to resolve the short-comings and the discrepancies in verses of Quran, in a phony way they ALL have tried to hush up the flaws of Quran, and disorient and confused the issues. And in their final conclusions to glorify Quran. The same way that Joseph Goebbels was promoting Nazi ideology, these scholars too were praising and admiring Quran and Islam. I acknowledge those Islamic scholars were very bright, and literarily they were very talented, but unfortunately their hard work was wasted on a hoax. The Islamic Sword has been eliminating any dissenting voice throughout the history of Islam. The oppositions were labeled as infidels, and killing them was, and still is, a virtue. And the Islamic rulers have been rewarding the murderers. As you see those tafsirs are all ONE-SIDED arguments, and they lack any objectivity. By contrast, I am expressing my views freely, and I am not afraid of Islamic Sword, and I have the internet to broadcast my writings.
I think you do remember in 1989 Khomeini’s Fatwa to kill Salman Rushdie for his book the “Satanic Verses”. If Rushdie was in a Moslem country, he would be dead few days after the issuance of that Fatwa. This is the way that Islam has been suffocating its critics throughout the Islam rules. Ahmad Kasravi was a writer, and he wrote few articles criticizing some of the Shiite teachings. In 1946, in Tehran Iran, Kasravi and his secretary were summoned to the office of District Attorney, to answer some heresy charges against them. Both these bright men were stabbed to death, right in front of the District Attorney, and the murderers went scout free. A no good Ayatollah had issued a Fatwa, urging their killing. This has been the fate of the oppositions in Moslem countries.
Only in recent years in western countries you hear some voices that are pointing out the falsehood of Quran. And my friend, my voice is the latest version amongst the seekers for the truth.
May God Bless Us All
Unes
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Flaws in Quran
(Continued)
(Continued)
Just remember, even if I find only one flaw in any verse of Quran, that is sufficient to conclude that Quran is a hoax.
Islam has three principles, 1. There is only one God, and that is God of Abraham, 2. Prophet Mohammad is God’s last messenger 3. There is a Judgment Day.
There are a lot of flaws that are referred to the Judgment Day. Here I like to give you a brief description of the Judgment Day according to Quran.
[20:129] If it were not for your Lord's predetermined plan, they would have been judged immediately.
[30:50] You shall appreciate GOD's continuous mercy, and how He revives the land that has been dead. He will just as certainly resurrect the dead. He is Omnipotent.
[43:11] He is the One who sends down from the sky water, in exact measure, to revive dead lands therewith. Similarly, you will be resurrected.
[50:11] Provisions for the people. And we revive with it dead lands; you are similarly resurrected.
[33:63] The people ask you about the Hour (end of the world). Say, "The knowledge thereof is only with GOD. For all that you know, the Hour may be close.”
[40:59] Most certainly, the Hour (Day of Judgment) is coming, no doubt about it, but most people do not believe.
[69:13] When the horn is blown once.
[69:14] The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed.
[69:15] That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass.
[69:16] The heaven will crack, and fall apart.
[69:17] The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).
[69:18] On that day, you will be exposed, nothing of you can be hidden.
[69:19] As for the one who receives his record with his right hand, he will say, "Come read my record.
[69:25] As for him who is given his record in his left hand, he will say, "Oh, I wish I never received my record.
= = = = = = = 38
[6:134] What is promised to you will come to pass, and you can never evade it.
This verse says whatever God has planned for us we can never evade them. If this is true, then why did God bother to send us the Quran!? This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 39
[9:51] Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what GOD has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In GOD the believers shall trust."
This flaw is similar to previous flaw.
= = = = = = = 40
[3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
As I explained the characteristic of Judgment Day, in that Day all people will be revived to face their Judgment. And the Judgment Day is on God’s predetermined plan in the FUTURE.
Then, the statement in verse [3:169] that it says the people who were killed for cause of God are alive is a lie. Because, those people could not been resurrected before the Judgment Day, that is God’s predetermined plan. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 41
[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
[42:15] This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by GOD. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. GOD is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. GOD will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny."
In verse [42:15] Quran says to Christians “There is no argument between us and you.” It sounds that Quran has forgotten that in many verses it forbid Christians from saying “Trinity”. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 42
[13:31] Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.
[16:9] GOD points out the paths, including the wrong ones. If He willed, He could have guided all of you.
[16:37] No matter how hard you try to guide them, GOD does not guide the ones He had committed to straying. Thus, no one can help them.
These verses that explore God’s will and God’s knowledge of the unchanging destiny, and how God controls the behaviors of believers and nonbelievers, and many other verses like these make God to be devilish and sadistic. Each of these verses is a flaw.
This teaching is the real cause that makes fanatic Moslems to become crazy and out of control. That is; crazy God generates crazy followers. This is a real flaw in Islam.
= = = = = = = 43
[16:14] And He committed the sea to serve you; you eat from it tender meat, and extract jewelry which you wear. And you see the ships roaming it for your commercial benefits, as you seek His bounties, that you may be appreciative.
[16:15] And He placed stabilizers (mountains) on earth, lest it tumbles with you, as well as rivers and roads, that you may be guided.
[43:10] He is the One who made the earth habitable for you, and created for you roads therein, that you may follow the right way.
God did not create roads! Man created trails and roads. This is a flaw.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
Augustus
…
This disagreemnets are about me trying to speculate (it's impossible to know) about how the Quran existed at the time of Muhammed, not what later people said about it.
And your 'challenge' is based on the interpretations of these very same scholars. You are dicussing the Quran with regard to the theology that developed around it over centuries, rather than one that may have existed in the early/mid 7th C.
Dear Augustus,
For Moslems there is only ONE Quran. The verses that I am quoting from are from Quran directly, this Quran was finalized few years after death of Mohammad. I think I was CRYSTAL clear about this point.
I think you have forgotten about your own challenge, this was you who mentioned about tafsirs. I said those tafsirs are useless, since they are ONE-SIDED, and their goals and focused were to glorify Quran and Islam, based on some phony arguments. I do not care about those tafsirs, I am dealing with verses of Quran directly.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes
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Augustus
…
Do you believe Islam emerged fully formed, and that the status of the Quran, and people's attitudes towards it, how it should be viewed, etc. was the same in 632 as it is today?
If you are arguing for a highly literalist approach, how would you interpret this verse "O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. God guides not the people of the evildoers."?
Flaws in Quran
(Continued)
(Continued)
Just remember, even if I find only one flaw in any verse of Quran, that is sufficient to conclude that Quran is a hoax.
= = = = = = = 44
[53:1] As the stars fell away.
[53:2] Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.
[53:4] It was divine inspiration.
[53:5] Dictated by the Most Powerful.
[53:6] Possessor of all authority. From His highest height.
[53:7] At the highest horizon.
[53:8] He drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until He became as close as possible.
[53:10] He then revealed to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The mind never made up what it saw.
[53:12] Are you doubting what he saw?
[53:13] He saw him in another descent.
[53:14] At the ultimate point.
[53:15] Where the eternal Paradise is located.
[53:16] The whole place was overwhelmed.
[53:17] The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.
This chapter starts with these verses. This chapter has 62 verses. Apparently this is the passage that Moslems claim that Mohammad ascended to Heaven and he saw God in Heaven, he also saw other Prophets.
First of all do we really understand who is telling this story!? And to whom this story is told!? The pronouns are messed up beyond any comprehension.
In the first verse apparently Mohammad is crossing the stars in his way to Heaven. In verse [53:8] he is moving DOWN. I thought the Heaven was up above, and now Mohammad is moving DOWN, what is going on here? Maybe because Mohammad was too excited and he had flown way up above the Heaven, and now he had to come DOWN to get close to God!
Now, please pay attention to these six verses, they are profound:
[53:13] He saw him in another descent.
[53:14] At the ultimate point.
[53:15] Where the eternal Paradise is located.
[53:16] The whole place was overwhelmed.
[53:17] The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.
As far as the meaning, here we find a complete chaos. Who saw whom in another descent? In [53:8] Mohammad came DOWN to get closer to God, and now there is another descent. Descent to where? To the ultimate point!? So, the ultimate point is way down somewhere!? And that is where the eternal Paradise is located?
In the following two verses God compares himself to three idols. Apparently these idols were well-known to those illiterate pagan worshipers. And the rest of verses in this GLORIOUS chapter Quran repeats the usual things, that idols are bad and God is good, and how he will punish the nonbelievers and how the believers are going to be rewarded, and trivial things like those.
Now, is anybody satisfied the way that this masterpiece in literature showed us the great meeting between God and Mohammad in the eternal Paradise? Quran says:
[18:109] Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."
In this description we do sense that Glory of God is way beyond our imaginations, and the eternal Paradise is another overwhelming experience, and yet this schmuck just gave us six lousy short sentences for both of these overwhelming experiences. This is an unparalleled flaw.
= = = = = = = 45
[17:106] A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.
[25:32] Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.
These two verses contradict each other. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 46
[18:51] I never permitted them to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I permit the wicked to work in My kingdom.
[29:53] They challenge you to bring the retribution! If it were not for a predetermined appointment, the retribution would have come to them immediately. Certainly, it will come to them suddenly, when they least expect it.
Verse [18:51] claims God does not permit the wicked to work in his kingdom, this means there is no wicked people anywhere. But, in verse [29:53] the wicked people are taunting God to bring his retribution. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 47
[22:47] They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy. A day of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.
This is so absurd; because, Time should not apply to God at all! Otherwise like us God will age too! And maybe someday he will die!
If God is with us all the time, then the experiences of day and night is voided for him, because he simultaneously exists in Day side and at Night side at all time. So what part of God experiences Day, and what part experiences Night!? This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 48
[6:146] For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
[6:150] Say, "Bring your witnesses who would testify that GOD has prohibited this or that." If they testify, do not testify with them. Nor shall you follow the opinions of those who reject our revelations, and those who disbelieve in the Hereafter, and those who stray away from their Lord
In verse [6:146] God prohibited certain food for Jewish people, and in verse [6:150] God denies that he had done those food prohibitions! This God has very short memory. Or, the Liar has a short memory. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 49
[17:44] Glorifying Him are the seven universes, the earth, and everyone in them. There is nothing that does not glorify Him, but you do not understand their glorification. He is Clement, Forgiver.
[16:36] We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
[30:42] Say, “Roam the earth and note the consequences for those before you.” Most of them were idol worshipers.
[27:69] Say, “Roam the earth and note the consequences for the guilty.”
Verse [17:44] say everything in heaven and earth prostrates to God, then, we should not find any rejecters anywhere, then, verses [16:36],[30:42], and [27:69] have to be wrong, because these verses indicate there were unbelievers who did not obey God and they were punished. This is a flaw.
Also, roaming the earth as the three verses suggest, we do not find any difference between the fate of the believers and the fate of the nonbelievers, they are all gone without any distinction.
= = = = = = = 50
[29:21] He condemns to retribution whomever He wills, and showers His mercy upon whomever He wills. Ultimately, to Him you will be turned over.
Verse [29:21] cannot be right. God does not bring retribution to whomever he wills. Certainly God does not punish a righteous person, if he does, then he has violated his own promise. But, this is a crazy God, only God knows what he may do. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 51
[30:5] In GOD's victory. He grants victory to whomever He wills. He is the Almighty, Most Merciful.
God’s laws and promises restrict him from doing things at his free will. God says in many verses that he does not change the predetermined fate. The predetermined destiny restricts God’s freedom of action. This is a flaw.
= = = = = = = 52
[29:62] GOD is the One who increases the provision for whomever He chooses from among His creatures, and withholds it. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Again this freedom in God’s will does violate God’s justice! God is constrained by his own word that he is just. This is a flaw.
May God Bless Us All,
Unes