1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

a letter to the muslims

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by chuck010342, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,156
    Ratings:
    +37,811
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    IMHO, they come across as very trivial and unimportant questions to debate. Was that your intention? For instance, the fact that Muslims face Mecca when praying seems far from earth-shattering: How does that fact have anything to do with the positive truths you find in Islam? It's a strange critique of a religion that focuses on which direction people pray.
     
  2. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    You this to what Sunstone said. When you criticize somebody for praying East, then not only are you open to similar critisisms, but there's always the "why stop there?" factor. After all, God is omniscient and omnipresent, so why should we have to pray at all? God already has His mind made up, and you can't change it. Further than that, He can supply your needs before He asks.

    When you nit-pick details about prayer like that, you need to be careful that you have lined up all the nitpicking details yourself. I have had this question asked of me, so it isn't a hypothetical. However, your avenue of questions with the Muslims here has closed off all justifiable responses to that question.

    So I guess I'm trying to say "What goes around comes around..."
     
  3. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30
    Thats just my point. They can't be christians if they do some things that, The very man whom Christianity is based around, Didn't do they are not christians
     
  4. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30
    The fact is, that it is not trivial, I'm trying to prove something.

    1. the fact that muslims pray towards mecca is a useless thing to do, thats what I'm trying to prove.

    2. This is not the only question that I have and the answer to my first question will give rise to other questions and therefore the debate will continue. Islam is a religion that focuses on the willingness to sumbit to the will of Allah not just on the direction they pray it.
     
  5. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30
    Amen, I am open to critisisms which is why I post on this website. And I thank Rex for giving me this oppurtunity.

    Good point, which is why Jesus says "Don't make lengthy prayers because your father already knowns what you need before you ask him" A prayer is simply 'talking' to God.

    How so?
     
  6. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Well, the argument I forwarded (which I do not accept) denies we should pray at all. After all, God already knows.

    How does it cut off all justifiable responses? Well, there is the "prayer is supposed to tranform you" response, but that can be made very quickly about rigid standards for praying towards Mecca. There is always the "Because God told me to," but we both know going in that Muslims feel this way about Mecca.

    How many other reasons for prayer are there? You can use the omniscience/omnipotence of God to cut all the others off. In essence say that prayer is a frivolous and useless activity.
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    do you keep kosher? Do you shave? Do you observe the Sabbath starting on friday night?
     
  8. croak

    croak Trickster

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,799
    Ratings:
    +211
    Okay, the fact that people go to church is useless, since they can pray at home.
    You don't need to pray because some spirit already knows you "love Jesus (as)."
    You don't need to celebrate Christmas, as it's only the birth of God.
    You can do all the evil you want, as long as you believe in a human.

    And why do we pray towards Mecca? Well, if Allah told you, "Pray towards Jerusalem," for example, would you? Or would you say, "It's useless."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30
    Lets have a justifiable response from a muslim and see if it is indeed justifiable
     
  10. croak

    croak Trickster

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,799
    Ratings:
    +211
    Okay, the fact that people go to church is useless, since they can pray at home.
    You don't need to pray because some spirit already knows you "love Jesus (as)."
    You don't need to celebrate Christmas, as it's only the birth of God.
    You can do all the evil you want, as long as you believe in a human.

    And why do we pray towards Mecca? Well, if Allah told you, "Pray towards Jerusalem," for example, would you? Or would you say, "It's useless."?
     
  11. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    That's fine by me, but I've already seen "Because God told me to" response...
     
  12. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30

    Amen


    You don't pray because you love Jesus, you pray because you want to communicate with him

    Christmas falls on december 25 and the bible never says that Jesus was Born on that date. Jesus never said to celebrate christmas therefore I don't. That s more of a 'liberal christian' concept


    I don't understand this statement

    If God Told me to pray toward Jerusalem. I would say "get away from me Satan" Because God would not say this, rather it is Satan disguised as God
     
  13. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    Says who?
     
  14. croak

    croak Trickster

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,799
    Ratings:
    +211
    I am fully aware of that.

    You can do all the evil you want, as long as you believe in a man named Jesus (as), who is supposedly God, and can get you in Heaven no matter what.

    Let me rephrase that. If two angels told you to do that, would you think that they were Satan? Because I don't think Allah would talk to you directly.

    And there is another point: you see Jesus (as), and he says "I am the Lord." How do you know that isn't Satan? How do you know he just doesn't want to fool you?
     
  15. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    236
    Ratings:
    +26
    I agree. Yes a prayer is simply talking to God. However, salat, which is what your refering to when your taking about the "praying" toward Mecca, isn't prayer. A better translation of the word salat would be worship, so praying is anything else that you ask of God outside of salat. Just like when you go to church, your not just going there to pray your going there to worship God. Only difference is that we are suppose to worship God five times a day everyday, it can be done anywhere (although worhsipping at the masjid is highly encouraged), and of course the obvious differences in how we worship.

    Also, I have to agree with everybody that the questions your asking are a bit trivial. If you're trying to make a point just make it, there's no need to beat around the bush. Plus you said that you already know how we're going to answer these questions, so lets just cut to the chase.

    Last, I noticed that you said that "real" christians shouldn't be doing things that Jesus (pbuh) didn't do, I'm going to assume that by saying this you would agree that Christians should also try and do the things that Jesus (pbuh) did do. Right? Well here's a little FYI, the Bible states in Matthew 26:39

    "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

    Hmmm. Now thats interesting to me. Aside from the obvious fact that Jesus (pbuh) appears to be praying (or worshipping or whatever you want to call it) like Muslim's pray, I can't say I have ever, EVER, in the 19 years of going to church every Sunday, seen a Christian fall on his face in prayer. I kinda suspect that you don't do this either, but I could be wrong, yet you claim that you should do what Jesus (pbuh) did.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. croak

    croak Trickster

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,799
    Ratings:
    +211
    I don't think any Christians do that.
     
  17. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    236
    Ratings:
    +26
    Seeing as how you speak Arabic, don't you agreed that the word worship is a better translation for salat than prayer? If not what would you suggest.
     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Actually, if you go to an Orthodox Church that hasn't any pews, then you're likely see people bowing down. However, I won't say more, as it's a little off-topic.
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,486
    Ratings:
    +922
    Jews used to prostrate themselves in the same way that muslims do, and even kneeling like christians, but that's ended now since it's so associated with other faiths, however there is bowing that goes on when you daven (pray).
     
  20. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    942
    Ratings:
    +30

    And you find this in the bible? Please show me where


    No I wouldn't because Satan has disguised himself as an angel of light. And I can quote that from the bible, 2 Corinthians 11:14

    Matthew 12:26

    Luke 11:18

    Those verses are my answer
     
Loading...