A Letter From a JW

[danieldemol]

how you would react if you did.

Give it a quick perusal to see it didn't contain anything I haven't heard a million gazillion times on RF then into the recycling it would go.

 

[Samael_Khan]

A bit like treading on egg shells.
I have supplied evidence from sources with links to the WT online library and quotes and dates from Watchtower Magazines and as far as I know they have not been read.
I have a discussion going with nPeace which started on Religious Atheists ( Religious Atheists? ) but was transferred to another thread, Link , if you're interested.
I haven't been there for a few days onto the new thread. It is almost as if I want to take the same advice that the WT gives it's members,,,,,,,,,,which is how I feel sometimes about discussions on the forums in general at times.

More like trying to kill a mosquito. You need one accurate hit otherwise it will fly away and come back to bite you. So you rather let it settle and feel comfortable in one place and then strike.

I just looked at that thread. It seems like there are too many points being made which will cause everybody to get lost and veer away from the core issues. So I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thread eventually overwhelms you.

What you have to do is address the core of the issue. The bible actually has nothing to do with it. This is because they believe that God's organisation only has truth and that truth is disseminated by the Governing Body. Individual witnesses cannot determine what is true in the Bible on their own. It isn't like the JW's on here came to these conclusions on their own. They were told in their publications what to believe that is why they accept whatever changes in doctrine come their way via the GB.

So you first have to deal with the question "What method does one use to understand the Bible?" and that method has to be consistent.

Below are points showing that their Bible understanding is subject to what the orgnanisation says, not what they themselves actually understand from the Bible. They follow men, who they think God works through, which basically means that they just follow men.

Understanding the Bible—What Are the Keys? (jw.org)
See that in this article doesn't explain any methodology in interpreting the Bible. Also note point 5 which is getting help from others and they point to themselves.

Loyalty to Jehovah’s Organization — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
Notice the title of the article and who they must be loyal to. They associate their organization with Jesus and Jehovah so Bible interpretation is only valid when it comes from the group they must be loyal to.

Here is a list of JW quotes showing that Bible understanding only comes through the faithful and discreet slave, which is the Governing Body:
The Faithful and Discreet Slave - is it the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society? (jwfacts.com)

They believe that God teaches through their group:
"22 In recent decades, Jehovah has refined our understanding of the Kingdom. For example, he has helped us to see more clearly when those who will be subjects of the Kingdom are to be separated from unresponsive ones as sheep are separated from goats. He has also taught us when the full number of the 144,000 will be filled, what the Kingdom illustrations given by Jesus mean, and when the last of the anointed will be raised to heavenly life. * "

God’s Purpose for Man—How It Was Revealed | God’s Kingdom (jw.org)

Christian Channel of Communication — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org):

"24 Fourth, the congregation of Christ must accept all the progressive revelations of the one true religion as contained in the Hebrew Scriptures channeled through all the prophets of old down to John the Baptist and in the Greek Scriptures channeled through Christ Jesus and his disciples. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses and their companions, the “other sheep,” do.—2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev. 22:18, 19; John 10:16."

"26 Sixth, the congregation of Christ must keep spiritually awake for the return of her Lord Jesus Christ and, when he comes invisibly with attention to this earth’s affairs, she must accept him and receive the joy and delight of the King’s presence as Ruler. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses have been spiritually awake to realize this great event of Christ’s enthronement in heaven in 1914.—Matt. 24:3, 42-44; 25:1-23."

"28 Eighth, the congregation of Christ, when cleansed, must have received the commendation of her Lord by being designated the “faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time.” Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses have realized this office since 1919, since when they have made a supreme effort to channel forth clean spiritual food to all those in association with them as Christ’s “domestics.”—Matt. 24:45-47, NW."

"30 Tenth, the congregation of Christ must today follow its first-century pattern by receiving progressive understandings of Bible prophecies which unfold further majestic purposes of the Living God and which new light of truth must be published impartially the world over by God’s prophetlike organization. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses and their companions “do not treat prophesyings with contempt” but publish their fulfillments as they become clear, in their Bible publications.—1 Thess. 5:20; Rev. 11:3, 4, NW."



Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Beliefs Clarified From 2012 to 2015 (jw.org)
Notice in this link "Increasing light from Jehovah continues to illuminate their way organizationally, doctrinally, and morally. "

Unity Identifies True Worship (jw.org)

"
7 First-century Christians enjoyed unity because they all received encouragement from the same source. They recognized that Jesus was teaching and directing the congregation through a governing body, composed of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. These devoted men based their decisions on God’s Word and had traveling overseers communicate their instructions to the congregations in many lands. Concerning some such overseers, the Bible says: “As they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem.”—Acts 15:6, 19-22; 16:4.

8 Similarly today, a Governing Body composed of spirit-anointed Christians contributes to the unity of the worldwide congregation. The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God’s Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah.—Isa. 54:13."

Unity of Worship in Our Time—What Does It Mean? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
"(2) We have God’s Word to guide us. “When you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.”—1 Thessalonians 2:13.

What danger is there in simply doing what we “feel” is right? (Proverbs 14:12; Jeremiah 10:23, 24; 17:9)

If we do not know what counsel the Bible gives on a certain matter, what should we do? (Proverbs 2:3-5; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

(3) We all benefit from the same spiritual feeding program. “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:13) “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day [of destruction] drawing near.”—Hebrews 10:24, 25.

What benefits come to those who take full advantage of Jehovah’s arrangements for spiritual feeding? (Isaiah 65:13, 14)"

They follow God's word as interpreted by the same feeding programme which is through the Governing Body.

So debating doctrine with them is irrelevent really. The only time that helps is if you point out logical contradictions, such as when they say they teach truth yet own up to saying they taught wrong doctrines in the past.

 

[Brian2]

More like trying to kill a mosquito. You need one accurate hit otherwise it will fly away and come back to bite you. So you rather let it settle and feel comfortable in one place and then strike.

I just looked at that thread. It seems like there are too many points being made which will cause everybody to get lost and veer away from the core issues. So I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thread eventually overwhelms you.

What you have to do is address the core of the issue. The bible actually has nothing to do with it. This is because they believe that God's organisation only has truth and that truth is disseminated by the Governing Body. Individual witnesses cannot determine what is true in the Bible on their own. It isn't like the JW's on here came to these conclusions on their own. They were told in their publications what to believe that is why they accept whatever changes in doctrine come their way via the GB.

So you first have to deal with the question "What method does one use to understand the Bible?" and that method has to be consistent.

Below are points showing that their Bible understanding is subject to what the orgnanisation says, not what they themselves actually understand from the Bible. They follow men, who they think God works through, which basically means that they just follow men.

Understanding the Bible—What Are the Keys? (jw.org)
See that in this article doesn't explain any methodology in interpreting the Bible. Also note point 5 which is getting help from others and they point to themselves.

Loyalty to Jehovah’s Organization — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
Notice the title of the article and who they must be loyal to. They associate their organization with Jesus and Jehovah so Bible interpretation is only valid when it comes from the group they must be loyal to.

Here is a list of JW quotes showing that Bible understanding only comes through the faithful and discreet slave, which is the Governing Body:
The Faithful and Discreet Slave - is it the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society? (jwfacts.com)

They believe that God teaches through their group:
"22 In recent decades, Jehovah has refined our understanding of the Kingdom. For example, he has helped us to see more clearly when those who will be subjects of the Kingdom are to be separated from unresponsive ones as sheep are separated from goats. He has also taught us when the full number of the 144,000 will be filled, what the Kingdom illustrations given by Jesus mean, and when the last of the anointed will be raised to heavenly life. * "

God’s Purpose for Man—How It Was Revealed | God’s Kingdom (jw.org)

Christian Channel of Communication — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org):

"24 Fourth, the congregation of Christ must accept all the progressive revelations of the one true religion as contained in the Hebrew Scriptures channeled through all the prophets of old down to John the Baptist and in the Greek Scriptures channeled through Christ Jesus and his disciples. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses and their companions, the “other sheep,” do.—2 Pet. 3:15, 16; Rev. 22:18, 19; John 10:16."

"26 Sixth, the congregation of Christ must keep spiritually awake for the return of her Lord Jesus Christ and, when he comes invisibly with attention to this earth’s affairs, she must accept him and receive the joy and delight of the King’s presence as Ruler. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses have been spiritually awake to realize this great event of Christ’s enthronement in heaven in 1914.—Matt. 24:3, 42-44; 25:1-23."

"28 Eighth, the congregation of Christ, when cleansed, must have received the commendation of her Lord by being designated the “faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time.” Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses have realized this office since 1919, since when they have made a supreme effort to channel forth clean spiritual food to all those in association with them as Christ’s “domestics.”—Matt. 24:45-47, NW."

"30 Tenth, the congregation of Christ must today follow its first-century pattern by receiving progressive understandings of Bible prophecies which unfold further majestic purposes of the Living God and which new light of truth must be published impartially the world over by God’s prophetlike organization. Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses and their companions “do not treat prophesyings with contempt” but publish their fulfillments as they become clear, in their Bible publications.—1 Thess. 5:20; Rev. 11:3, 4, NW."



Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Beliefs Clarified From 2012 to 2015 (jw.org)
Notice in this link "Increasing light from Jehovah continues to illuminate their way organizationally, doctrinally, and morally. "

Unity Identifies True Worship (jw.org)

"
7 First-century Christians enjoyed unity because they all received encouragement from the same source. They recognized that Jesus was teaching and directing the congregation through a governing body, composed of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. These devoted men based their decisions on God’s Word and had traveling overseers communicate their instructions to the congregations in many lands. Concerning some such overseers, the Bible says: “As they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem.”—Acts 15:6, 19-22; 16:4.

8 Similarly today, a Governing Body composed of spirit-anointed Christians contributes to the unity of the worldwide congregation. The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God’s Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah.—Isa. 54:13."

Unity of Worship in Our Time—What Does It Mean? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)
"(2) We have God’s Word to guide us. “When you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.”—1 Thessalonians 2:13.

What danger is there in simply doing what we “feel” is right? (Proverbs 14:12; Jeremiah 10:23, 24; 17:9)

If we do not know what counsel the Bible gives on a certain matter, what should we do? (Proverbs 2:3-5; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

(3) We all benefit from the same spiritual feeding program. “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:13) “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day [of destruction] drawing near.”—Hebrews 10:24, 25.

What benefits come to those who take full advantage of Jehovah’s arrangements for spiritual feeding? (Isaiah 65:13, 14)"

They follow God's word as interpreted by the same feeding programme which is through the Governing Body.

So debating doctrine with them is irrelevent really. The only time that helps is if you point out logical contradictions, such as when they say they teach truth yet own up to saying they taught wrong doctrines in the past.

Thanks