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Featured A holistic approach to who the Mahdi is per Shiite hadiths and Quran.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    God can talk directly to all of us but won't. He can send us Angels, but won't. He can reveal all of us divine scripture/books but won't. Isa (a) could've been witness when was taken away, but says he was witness so long as he was among them. God being the true witness in all this, had another witness during that time (Elyas (a)) who is the witness in Bani-Israel that testified to Mohammad (s) per some hadiths in Al-Kafi and gave him the items of past such as staff of Musa (a) and ring of Sulaiman (a) and divine books including Torah and Gospels.

    There is a wisdom to emphasize the living have a Guide to be guided by and a leader among them, and the word of light is always found in the best among humanity on earth and the racer of ahead of all in good deeds.

    God never has it that current guidance is through dead people. They come and go for a reason. No doubt Mohammad (S) is a light in the highest reality along with his holy family (a), but God connects people to unseen reality through leader of time.

    If not, people can argue against Isa (a) and say "why not Moses (a) be the light, we don't need you".

    God never allowed earth to be with a proof (living) and doesn't make the connection except through a living one. Mohammad (S) is addressed in Salah but this is through power of Imam Mahdi (A) connecting us to him.

    The witness from us is Imam Mahdi (A) while Mohammad (s) witnesses him, and Ahulbayt including Mohammad (s) are presented the deeds every Thursday Night, they are not constantly witnessing us nor emanating the light of God constantly that is a judgment from God - that is Imam of time.
     
  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    So, does Mahdi currently talks to you directly?
    If that's the case, why then, there are stories that the Mahdi was talking to Four deputies, and the deputies brought His message?


    So, He does not send you angels for what reason?

    You already have the Quran and the Hadithes. What else do you need?
    Does Mahdi currently give you divine scriptures?


    Witness for what?
    If you mean, witness to deeds of mankind, so, that God will send each person base on their deeds, then it is said in your Book, God has kept a record of everyone in a Preserved Tablet. Why does God need a witness, when He already knows everything about everyone?
    What does Mahdi do in this regard currently?
    He is not among you currently. He is hidden according to your belief.

    What is the benefit of giving him the items such as staff of Moses or the ring of Sulaiman?


    Yes. But my question is, currently, when your Imam is hidden as per your belief, what can he do that Muhammad and other Imams cannot do?
    Why should God keep a person alive for centuries, when Muhammad and other Imams are already alive in the Spiritual realm?


    But Jesus is alive. What can Mahdi do for Christians currently that Jesus cannot do?

    How does God connect people to unseen through the leader of time?
    What do you mean by the Unseen here?

    Exactly. So, Jesus is alive and He is the light, why people need Mahdi?

    But in Quran it is said, do not say those who are killed in the path of God, they are dead. They are alive, but you do not know. Right? Thus, for example, Imam Hussein is alive, yes? And when we have an alive Imam already, what's the need for a Mahdi to be alive?



    Why does Mahdi need Muhammad to witness him?
     
    #22 InvestigateTruth, Jun 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  3. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Salam

    One of the reasons an Imam of time is always present, is people also can't escape the fact God has provide a king on earth, and so people have a duty to rally to him and every generation has capability of coming to him and God's guidance through him to be established.

    And one of the reasons, is that the different type of guidance and signs (inward light + miracles of physical nature + hadiths explained + Quranic verses explained and miracles in Quran shown + advice from the Imam of time + witnessing our deeds and feedback + plan of God + revealing secrets of the world + power of Imam in giving barrier + sword and face of God reality in fighting demons and sorcery + other type of important features of guidance) work together best through a human who is both physically present on earth and connected to the unseen highest reality as well.

    This is part of the wisdom of why God didn't delegate the chosen ones to represent him among Jinn or Angels, and chose it to be humans, part of it is the type of signs and delegation issues.

    Same reason why God didn't delegate the Mastery and Authority and Trust to the earth despite the earth have a beautiful noble spirit. Same with mountains which are holy places for dead often too (the good among them), he didn't delegate it to them, and when presented with it, they feared regarding it.

    This - while humans often - ignorantly take the task of leading and authority in religion when they have no right to such task and can't represent the truth of God's words nor be the way.
     
  4. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Because the Mahdi (a) has Twelve Captains (a) and Fatima (a) with him iin his affair and they use different type of light and different type of intercession (each of Ahlulbayt help believers in a different way) and Mohammad (s) is one of the Twelve Captains with him, same way Sulaiman (a) had Twelve Lions with him, same way Ayub (a) had his family and the likes of them (other Ahlulbayts of the past) with him.

    And not everything is about need. It's about how God guides by the visited family/house of time and uses them together and there is wisdom in their affection and unity in the journey of souls.

    Imam Mahdi (a) is constant witness, but they also presented the deeds he witnessed every Thursday night.

    And why not God, well, because the light of day of judgment is the chosen witnesses, they provide the light, power, and God says he won't talk directly to disbelievers on this day.

    So every Thursday Night - the rest of Ahlulbayt (a) is presented with deeds, and this is because of all of them have known station in accompanying believers.

    But they do this through the connecting reality of Imam Mahdi (A) and provides a gateway to that sky reality (of Ahlulbayt (a) including Mohammad (s)) to others.
     
  5. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    A whole mode of Quran is used to explain this question.
     
  6. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Both Quran and hadiths emphasize a lot on seeking help of the current living reminder and Imam of time so this "what else" is misleading. The hadiths are important, especially, that the narrators of hadiths will be a proof to the public from Imam Mahdi (a) while he is the proof of God.
     
  7. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    One of the reasons I didn't mention, to create illusion of vulnerability so that devils and sorcerers keep hoping they can defeat him and kill him. This is part of the trial.

    If it was invulnerable (the light of God on earth) in presentation, the trial would be over. Their true power will be shown on day of judgement, till then God decides not to display unseen sign in full power and display for a reason and wisdom.
     
  8. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    As a trial to Jinn and humans who witness powers or miracles from Imam Mahdi (a). We know Sulaiman (a) was accused of being an evil sorcerer per hadiths and Iblis magic was attributed to be the source of his power.

    We also know that Quran warns that the disbeliever gods never were able to thwart off God's punishment to towns and cities, yet, we see there is always Devils and sorcerers with the irrational hope they can, and Iblis promised he would be there against 313 in battle, but ran away for a reason.

    At the end, the final trial is the Mahdi. To give you a hint, many sorcerers among humans, know of him, but accuse him as either an evil sorcerer or possessed one by forces (that are not supposed to be followed) and that he is misguided.

    This trial of good and evil, Angels vs Devils, all takes place through God's representative on earth.

    Iblis hope is not to be cut off for now as a trial, even though he practically despaired when he heard Quran.

    They have hope they can kill the Mahdi and even prevent the warnings in Quran, just as the Jinn and worshipers of Jinn from humans, often had in the past pertaining to punishment of God.

    This is part of the emphasis that 19 Angels can subdue all men and jinn in hell. That no one truly knows the power of God's forces but God himself and what we witnessed in this regard (even the miracles talked about in Quran) is just little compared to their capabilities.

    And if you believe in God's Lordship and Kingship, then you have to accept miracles as signs.
     
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but in Quran the verses which says to seek guidance from the Imam of time, are for when Imam of time, is among people, and is accessible to people. For example Abraham was an Imam of His time. There is no example in Quran, when an Imam of time was hidden for centuries and then God was asking to seek guidance from an Imam who is hidden. Likewise, there is no verse in Quran, that says, the Mahdi is born, then He will be hidden for centuries.
    How is such belief compatible with the Quran?
    .
    But according to Hadithes, the Mahdi brings a new Book, and correct interpretation of Quran.
    But this only happens after His rise. What's the benefit of Him, being alive for centuries before His rise?
     
    #29 InvestigateTruth, Jun 25, 2022
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  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    But if I understood you correctly, you said that, the reason Imam Mahdi is currently needed, is, because Muhammad and other Imams are dead, but the leader of time needs to be a living person. Now, I asked for example Imam Hussein is not dead. He is alive. Right? So, if you already have an alive Imam, He can already be a guide and help in :current time".
     
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  11. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Yet, the Gospels under explanation of the blessed mystic Paul shows a lot in that regard (Paul words are not Gospels, but I see him as a blessed mystic), and Quran placement of Elyas (a) is so tactical, and it's perfect placement in the Two chapters he is found, can only be explained through the understanding he was God's sword and holy spirit from God inwardly to all believers, but also, when we read about Khidr (a) in Quran and hadiths, we see there is more to the world with God's friends then meets the eye.

    The original trinity was not about three gods or parts or aspects or persons of God or whatever, but about God link with Isa (a) and to understand this position to understand the current (Elyas (a)) holy spirit instance and current sword of God that is needed. So the holy spirit (whoever it is, Elyas (a) can be derived to be this in Gospels) but not emphasizing on his name nor him being in public, and God, and Isa (a), the real relationship between these three, is better understood through Imammate and Welayat.

    Also, the Quran says God never stop sending his signs (and primary emphasis is miracles in the verse context) except previous ones (generations) denied them.

    So we see God doesn't ever want to hide his signs in form of miracles, but sometimes he is prevented from sending when people deny them, for good of humanity.

    And part of the good is to stop destruction of humanity and not destroy them. But there is wisdom in the cycle of both. Of course, the purpose of miracles and Imams in open is guidance and so if people are become increasingly hostile towards the followers of truth, oppressing them, and immersed in opposition, there is also wisdom from that point of view concealing.

    And there many wisdoms some we can know, some we can't. But of course, God hides such miracles, so we can hope in the future they return to public.

    The trial of ending Nubuwa so much so that Ali (a) and Imams (A) after him didn't have God's words in form of scripture being revealed to rally people to them is a trial in itself.

    And the concealment of proof to whatever degree even to the extent with no leader in public to come to, is up to God.

    I would see what I've written about Elyas (a) and his places. I've written a lot about this in signs of eloquence in the Quran for example and other threads.
     
  12. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    You repeat this question over and over again. Perhaps bring points instead of repeating same thing paraphrased already by you over 10 times.
     
  13. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    These are not my arguments. That would be circular in addressing your question. I'm showing why the Imam needs to be alive on earth.

    Please stop repeating it, there was a reason I didn't quote the over 10 paraphrases of this strawman.
     
  14. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I see that the trial for us is the Mahdi, we are judged upon our acceptance.

    The Mahdi is also judged by us, in many ways, like this sign on a Baha'i shop.

    bahai-international-community-contacts-un-bahai-property-seizures-iran-768x421.jpg

    Membership in the “errant” or “misguided” Baha’i “sect”

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    Quran says people avoid truth due to rebellion (to others). You can hate me, I don't care, just don't let it prevent you from accepting truth I show.
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    There is nothing but Love available to you and all muslims from a Baha'i Link.

    That does not mean a Baha'i will not appeal for justice, nor ask for people to be just. That is all part of what Love requires.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Link

    Link Veteran Member
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    You should focus your efforts not on who the Devil and his controlled oppressors and who US to Israel and others are picking on and bullying and oppressing.

    Your criticism is used by Colonialism to oppress further. Picking on the people they are picking on is a sign you are oppressive people who are too cowardly to speak against the bigger bullies in the world and want to pick on who the evil powers in the world are picking on.

    This is the stance you've taken, you've taken the side of Zionist and other oppressors in interpreting Quran, day of judgment, the Mahdi, etc, in whatever way you guys have.
     
  18. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The point is, you are saying, at all times there is a leader appointed by God on earth. But this has not been the case in the history of Prophets. Consider, Jesus. From the Time Jesus left the world, until Muhammad appeared, there was almost 600 years. During this six hundreds years, there was no such Imam among mankind. So, the claim that, God never leaves earth without an Imam is not compatible with Holy Books, Quran or the Bible.
    I am aware of such Hadithes that says God never leaves earth without an Imam of the time, but in my view we are not to read it literally. What this Hadith means is, whenever, the End of an Ummah comes, then God appoints an new Guide for the people of that Time. The time mentioned in the Hadith does not mean literally 24 hours a day, 365 days a year there is an Imam among people. But it means in every Age, there is an Imam or guide for people!!!


    Moreover, if let's say for the sake of argument, the 11th Imam had literally a son, being the Mahdi. If this person was not hidden, and was accessible to humanity all these years, then one can say, God did not leave the earth without an Imam. But when this person is absent and or hidden, even if he was indeed alive, it makes no difference to mankind, when they cannot talk or hear him. Allah sent Messengers and Imams to people, so, They can reveal scriptures or Hadithes, to guide them. If Mahdi is absent, practically there is no benefit.

    I have already shown the Hadith from Imam Baghir that the Mahdi is born during the End Time!!!

    Beside all these issues, Imam Riza have said in a Hadith, that if God wanted to prolong life of anyone for the needs of mankind, He would have prolonged life of Muhammad!!!

    On the other hand, Imam Sadigh said, that the Two disappearance of the Mahdi, is after His rise!!! Please pay attention to these Hadithes.

    In Hadithes Imam Ali said, the disappearance of Mahdi is 6 years. Whereas, this number does not match with what Shia sects claims about the minor or major occultation!!!

    In conclusion I see the current interpretation held by Shia regarding existence of an Imam physically alive, but hidden somewhere illogical as well as incompatible with the Quran and Hadithes.
     
    #38 InvestigateTruth, Jun 25, 2022
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  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I have not done this, you have done this.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The stance I have taken is embracing the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    I do not bring specific political views into the discussions, but to show where injustices are being practiced.

    Regards Tony
     
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