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A Good Bible Debate (That May Answer a Few of Your Questions).

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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
It would be much clearer if you substitute the word "Father" for the word "God". The Heavenly Father is not the same as Jesus. But the Father and Jesus are both part of the thing known as "God". In other words God consists of the Father and the Son. If you want to add a third "person" that is up to you but the father and son are different beings that together make up the one and only God.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
12jtartar said:
djhwoodwerks,
There is an infinite difference between a god and ab Almighty God!!! Anyone who reads the Bible with a modicum of understanding knows that the Bible says that Jesus qualifies as a god, but he is not his Father. If you have a concordance lookup Isaiah 9:6,7. Jesus, the Christ is the one spoken about here. Notice in verse 6, Jesus is called a Mighty God, which in Hebrew is El Gabbohr, but Jehovah, his Father is The Almighty God, in Hebrew El Shaddai. You could have ten billion Mighty god's and they would be nothing compared with the power of The Almighty!!! Consider how this is written in Psalms 86:8-10, 89:5-7, 95:3, 96:4,5, 97:7,9.
Jesus said that the Father is his Father and our Father, his God and our God, John 20:17. Also Revelation 3:12.
Jesus said that the Father is GREATER than he is, John 14:28.
Jesus said that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57.
The Bible tells us that Jesus was the first of God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14.
The Bible says that Jesus belongs to God, 1Corinthians 3:23, and that God is Jesus' head, 1Corinthians 11:3.
Did you know that God hates deception, Psalms 5:6, Proverbs 3:32. Who was talking from heaven when Jesus was baptized??? Matthew 3:17, 1Peter 2:22. Who spoke during Jesus' transfiguration, Mark 9:7. God hates deception, it was God!!!
This concept makes it impossible that Jesus is the same person as God. Jesus comes in before the throne of God while God is on the throne, Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 5:5,7,8.
God knows things and controls things that Jesus has no power to know or do, Matthew 20:23, 24;36.
I could go on and on, but these Scriptures should suffice, that is to any Christian!!!
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Isaiah 44:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Why do watchtower members try and use all that nonsense about what Jesus said to 'prove' Jesus isn't God? Where in the world do you get that "true Christians" claim that the flesh and blood body of Jesus was God?

"JESUS" was flesh and blood, human, subject to all limitations just like us. So how could He not say God was His Father? How could He not say, God was greater than He was? He was "flesh and blood" just like us! It was God in the flesh, He emptied Himself and became human!

Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV Strong's) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Hockeycowboy said:
Acclaimed scholar and Roman Catholic priest (i.e., a trinitarian,) John L. McKenzie, in his Dictionary of the Bible, New York, 1965p. 899, wrote: "The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."

An honest scholar! I would have liked to have met him. I hope to, someday!
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I share your acclimation of John McKenzie and have his Dictionary of the Bible. It is interesting that the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Church. It is not stated in the Creed as an article of faith, yet it is the Trinity that is the foundation of all dogma. However there is in the Creed mention of belief in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The word is not found in Scripture but there is reference to it. In Hebrew Scripture there is dialogue within God. In Luke's account of the execution of Steven in Jerusalem. just before his own death - he had a vision: "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. ' I can see heaven thrown open', he said, 'and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Here Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together, or - as Luke puts it - God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Stephen does not see, as is so often depicted in Christian art - a triangle, but the Holy Spirit is at his side, in Stephen himself

Since it was revealed there, Jesus' resurrection, that God
himself acted in Jesus, the Spirit of God can now rightly be understood also as the Spirit of Jesus taken up to God. The biblical sources can offer more understanding than the speculation on (physis, ousia, essence, substance) in the three divine persons (hypostases, subsistences, prosopa, relations).
 
Hockeycowboy

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
Again, when most people use the word "God" they are talking about "the Father". No man has seen God ( the Father ) but people could see Jesus in his human form. Together the two of them make up the one and only "God".
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Not according to Paul @ 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. Jesus Himself said to 'worship the Father';Jesus called them "true worshippers". He didn't include Himself. (John 4:23-24) He is our Savior, made so by God, Philippians 2:9-11, and deserves our honor and loyalty. But our worship goes to His (and our) Father and God - John 20:17 -- the God of the Jews, Yahweh (Jehovah). Exodus 20:1-6.

Take care.
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
djhwoodwerks said:
How could a mere man say, "you trust God, trust me the same way"?
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Religious forums have messiahs and gods all over the place. Why not trust them?

rharris001 said:
God says at Exodus 33:20: "But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
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Except for all the people who did, starting with Adam and Eve.

rharris001 said:
Jesus said at John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."
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Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Methinks it would behoove some biblical characters to read the other stories before making claims.
 
Hockeycowboy

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
djhwoodwerks said:
Why do watchtower members try and use all that nonsense about what Jesus said.....
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Lol! Sad, really.

Acts of the Apostles 3:22.

Then there is John 10:27......"My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

Get it? He said "follow" him, not worship him! We follow him, we 'listen to His voice', by worshipping who he worshipped, his God and Father. John 20:17: John 4:23-24.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Hockeycowboy said:
Lol! Sad, really.

Acts of the Apostles 3:22.

Then there is John 10:27......"My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

Get it? He said "follow" him, not worship him! We follow him, we 'listen to His voice', by worshipping who he worshipped, his God and Father. John 20:17: John 4:23-24.
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That is all very touching, but also very misleading! You make it sound like YOU, as a rank and file member of the watchtower, follow Jesus, YOU don't follow Jesus! YOU follow the slave, as THEY follow Jesus.

*** w09 2/15 p. 27 par. 13 They “Keep Following the Lamb” ***
Just as the anointed Christians follow Jesus no matter where he goes, the great crowd ‘goes with,’ or accompanies, the faithful and discreet slave. Those of the great crowd should never be ashamed to identify themselves as companions of the “partakers of the heavenly calling.” (Heb. 3:1) Jesus is not ashamed to call the anointed ones “brothers.”—Heb. 2:11.

That quote makes it very clear that the "anointed" follow Jesus, and YOU rank and file members "accompany" THEM. YOU don't follow Jesus, YOU'RE just hanging out with the 'slave' as THEY follow Jesus
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
12jtartar said:
djhwoodwerks, There is an infinite difference between a god and ab Almighty God!!! Anyone who reads the Bible with a modicum of understanding knows that the Bible says that Jesus qualifies as a god, but he is not his Father.
Click to expand...

Hockeycowboy said:
Lol! Sad, really.
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Please explain it to us then!

Isaiah 44:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
 
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