A God Problem

[Trailblazer]

I believe you will qualify as a false prophet. There are still prophecies in the Bible to be fulfilled and they will be.

The prophecies for the return of Christ were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

The prophecies for the coming of the Messiah were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

The prophecies that refer to the Messianic Age are in the process if being fulfilled and all of them will be fulfilled during this new age as a result of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

We are no longer living in the Prophetic Cycle of religion. We are living in the Cycle of Fulfillment. The Prophetic Cycle started with Adam and ended with Muhammad. The Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in the Cycle of Fulfillment, also known as the Baha’i Cycle. It is called the Cycle of Fulfillment because all the prophecies in the Bible will be fulfilled during this cycle, which will last no less than 500,000 years.

 

[Trailblazer]

My point is that in this day of increased exposure and education where everybody 'thinks for themselves', many are not intellectually and spiritually satisfied by either of the two old positions. I believe a New Age of spirituality is dawning before our eyes at this time in history and it is one that better meets the intellectual and spiritual needs of modern man.

That is true. I am glad some people can see it.
See what I just said to Muffled.
A New Age of spirituality is dawning before our eyes.

 

[Milton Platt]

Religions have always known that and have rather built in inconsistencies to work for them. It allows them to create different messages for all occasions. They even turned inconsistencies into a proof of God, and called it wonders. Whenever something is not explainable they call it the mystery of God, or the power of God. That is what "supernatural" means. God does not abide by Laws, God makes the laws and makes exceptions whenever he sees fit. And God does not abide to human logic or wisdom either, the books claims. It even says for the world believers are fools. They covered it all.

Why not? After all, as far as I am concerned, God is a fantasy product en in fantasy there are no limitations. That actually is the fundamental attraction to believers. That is what makes them believe that God can save them, no matter how unethical or improbable that is. That is what gives them hope. Like Jesus says, with God the impossible is possible. He is supernatural after all.

Abrahamism is not a logical world view like the Greek philosophers created. It is something created by religious traders to sell well on the religious market. It relies heavily on emotional arguments. People want to realize that in the Roman empire religion was commerce. On every street corner in Rome there were temples from all over the empire competing with each other. There were fierce religious trade wars between the Greek en the Jews for the favor of the believers, even leading to huge death tolls in the Roman cities. Monotheistic religion only developed into a more respected theology when it became the official ideology of the Jewish Kingdom, Roman empire and Arab Empire. They had intellectuals iron out all the controversies and inconsistencies in the most far-fetched explanations, but explanations non the less

And who cares what is in the book. The common believer has no idea. Nor does he spend much time on reflecting on it. Nor does he believe all the stuff he hears. If it would dawn to people how unethical the underlying ideologies really are, how much they promote slavery, inequality, and endless conflicts, and how much blood they shed to expand their markets in the trillion dollar trade they would be appalled. But luckily most are simply good people who want to live a good life and want to believe in something that is good. So let them. The world does not become better if you change believers into disappointed cynical atheists. They will simply fall for other belief-based "religions", like Scientology. It is much better to keep the old traditions alive and let them mature further.

You can be an atheist without being either disappointed or cynical. You can be very religious and be blth disappointed and cynical.

 

[LuisDantas]

I might be harmed by my certitude if my beliefs are false, but atheists might be harmed by their non-belief if it is false, and God actually exists.

Eh. Everything is possible. You remind me that I "might" be a werewolf from Alpha Centauri and that I might have a strong claim to the throne of France to boot.

As worries go, those are about as significant as that of the existence of God, far as I am concerned. I sure hope you did not expect me to take God's existence more seriously than that. You definitely have not presented me with any reason for such, and I can't in good faith encourage you, or anyone, to make the attempt. I am an apatheist at heart, and am very likely indeed to die as one. It is just not a matter worth of serious consideration. Never was, can't conceivably ever be.

I do not see how my certitude could harm anyone else unless I tried to inflict my beliefs upon others, and they are false.

That could perhaps be the case if you lived entirely apart from other people. Since we are interacting right now, I doubt that too.

None of what you cited was not caused by the use of Messengers, it was caused by the humans who professed to follow them. Thus it was human error.

Sure, in the sense that reliance on Messengers of God (hereby conceived as a rare breed of exceptional humans with some form of divine authority) is very much human error. What else could it possibly be?

Very much a shame either way.

I do not know exactly what you mean by dehumanization or which Messengers did that. What did these Messenger say that was dehumanizing?

The classic example are the claims of the Bible and the Qur'an.

I do not claim to have certitude that God exists in the sense of having actual proof; I only have what I call “inner certitude.” Likewise, an atheist can have inner certitude that there is no god and either position is logically possible.

But only one of the two is a dangerous bet on dubious claims, you know.

 

[Muffled]

C’mon. What are the rational reasons that make you believe in Allah? It just needs a bit of reason to realize how untenable that is.

Ciao

- viole

I believe Allah says the type of things God says and in the way God says them.

 

[viole]

I believe Allah says the type of things God says and in the way God says them.

Tautologically, since I believe Allah means God.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

Which ones? I think its very confusing with the futurists forever changing the identity of Gog and Magog, the AntiChrist and the Beast..


The people of the prince which is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

This was fulfilled by Titus and the Roman Empire in 70 AD. In the war with the Jews, the Roman army besieged and destroyed Jerusalem, burned the temple, and killed many Jews.

I believe the return of Jesus is one. As for right now that the sun is hotter. Global warming is a reality.
Rev. 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed2 the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

 

[Muffled]

Tautologically, since I believe Allah means God.

Ciao

- viole

My pastor does not agree. He shares the misconception that they worship a moon god.

 

[sooda]

I believe the return of Jesus is one. As for right now that the sun is hotter. Global warming is a reality.

Rev. 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed2 the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

Have you identified the 4th angel?


Biblical scholars have long known that Gog is in Turkey. Interestingly, in A.D. 1071—1000 YRS AFTER THE FALL OF JERUSALEM IN A.D. 70–the TURKS (LITERAL GOG) conquered Palestine and incited the Crusades, the Battle of Gog and Magog (A.D.1095)

 

[viole]

My pastor does not agree. He shares the misconception that they worship a moon god.

Well, I am sure that is reciprocated by some Imam.

Ciao

- viole

 

[sooda]

My pastor does not agree. He shares the misconception that they worship a moon god.

There were lots of different gods in pagan Arabia including a moon god.

 

[Muffled]

And I believe you are too a part of the previous century's dichotomy of Christianity verses Atheism.

I am not against you and prefer Christianity to Atheism any old day myself.

My point is that in this day of increased exposure and education where everybody 'thinks for themselves', many are not intellectually and spiritually satisfied by either of the two old positions. I believe a New Age of spirituality is dawning before our eyes at this time in history and it is one that better meets the intellectual and spiritual needs of modern man.

I believe people are dissatisfied because they are going down the wrong road and that can happen inside the church as well as outside of it.

 

[Muffled]

Well, I am sure that is reciprocated by some Imam.

Ciao

- viole

I believe that I have no doubts that Islamic teachers have a great many misconceptions about Christianity and Islam as well.

 

[viole]

I might be harmed by my certitude if my beliefs are false, but atheists might be harmed by their non-belief if it is false, and God actually exists.

Why? Do you really think He would punish us? I think He would be proud of us, if He is really so clever. I am not aware that believing stuff without evidence is highly respected by smart beings.

And you assume that the only God that might exist is yours. With the same evidence you provide, i could say that God rewards atheists and send theists to eternal hell. Or sends to hell only believers in Baha, etc. I mean, why not?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

I don't have to eat garbage to know it tastes bad.....

I don't have to experience the results of sexually transmitted disease to understand why God promotes sexual morality.

Why do you think God does? Why do you place human limitations on a Being who has none?

Do you know why evil even exists?

Do you know why God was going to keep the knowledge of what was good and evil in his own jurisdiction?

What do you think would have happened if the first humans had simply obeyed God and told the devil to "get lost"?

I believe I once told my grandmother that beer tasted like **** so she asked me when I had tasted ****. That was a question that begged not to be answered.

 

[viole]

I believe that I have no doubts that Islamic teachers have a great many misconceptions about Christianity and Islam as well.

I believe I have no doubts as well. Which is easy, considering how confusing they are. I mean they believe in airborn saviours and flying horses. Easy to have misconceptions.

Ciao

- viole

 

[sooda]

I believe you will qualify as a false prophet. There are still prophecies in the Bible to be fulfilled and they will be.

Prophesy has to be specific and can't be written after the fact. Be wary of snake oil salesmen.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I might be harmed by my certitude if my beliefs are false, but atheists might be harmed by their non-belief if it is false, and God actually exists.”

Eh. Everything is possible. You remind me that I "might" be a werewolf from Alpha Centauri and that I might have a strong claim to the throne of France to boot.

As worries go, those are about as significant as that of the existence of God, far as I am concerned. I sure hope you did not expect me to take God's existence more seriously than that. You definitely have not presented me with any reason for such, and I can't in good faith encourage you, or anyone, to make the attempt. I am an apatheist at heart, and am very likely indeed to die as one. It is just not a matter worth of serious consideration. Never was, can't conceivably ever be.

I was just stating a hypothetical... IF God exists.... But nobody can ever prove that so there is no reason to try to make an attempt to change anyone’s mind...

No, I did not expect anything of you; where beliefs are concerned, I never expect anything of anyone except myself.

Nobody should believe in anything unless it makes sense to them. Some atheists will die as atheists and after that, only God knows what will happen... I do not profess to know.

“I do not see how my certitude could harm anyone else unless I tried to inflict my beliefs upon others, and they are false.”

That could perhaps be the case if you lived entirely apart from other people. Since we are interacting right now, I doubt that too.

This is a religious forum so I talk about them here, but I would never inflict my beliefs upon anyone. I “real life” I never talk about my beliefs unless someone starts talking about their beliefs.

I think people are responsible for their own beliefs or lack thereof, and they are also responsible to have a boundary between themselves and other people; so if they are on a religious forum, they should expect to hear about religious beliefs since that is par for the course.

“None of what you cited was not caused by the use of Messengers, it was caused by the humans who professed to follow them. Thus it was human error.”

Sure, in the sense that reliance on Messengers of God (hereby conceived as a rare breed of exceptional humans with some form of divine authority) is very much human error. What else could it possibly be?

Very much a shame either way.

It is a human error either way.... If the Messengers of God do not carry divine authority, it is human error to believe they do, but if the Messengers of God do carry divine authority, it is human error to distort their teachings and it is also human error to turn away from them.

“I do not know exactly what you mean by dehumanization or which Messengers did that. What did these Messenger say that was dehumanizing?”

The classic example are the claims of the Bible and the Qur'an.

I thought you were referring to these texts but I am not very proficient in either one. What do they say about nonbelievers that is so bad? Are you referring to hell?

“I do not claim to have certitude that God exists in the sense of having actual proof; I only have what I call “inner certitude.” Likewise, an atheist can have inner certitude that there is no god and either position is logically possible.”

But only one of the two is a dangerous bet on dubious claims, you know.

I do not understand what is dangerous about betting on God. I am not saying that an atheist should pretend to believe in a God they do not believe in just to avoid the possibility of eternal punishment or to gain a possible eternal reward, but perhaps leaving the door open to the possibilities might be prudent.

 

[Trailblazer]

viole said: Why? Do you really think He would punish us? I think He would be proud of us, if He is really so clever. I am not aware that believing stuff without evidence is highly respected by smart beings.

I cannot say I know if God will punish atheists. However, if God exists and God sent Messengers as evidence of His existence, and to reveal messages God wants us to have, then I do not think that God will be “proud” of people who reject His Messengers. I cannot say what God will think or do about that, that’s up to God. I think it would depend upon why they rejected the Messengers. If they really tried to believe in them and couldn’t, I would think that is a lot different from someone who just discounted them out of hand, because the former is sincere and the latter is arrogant.

Regarding punishment, I do not think that God will punish atheists, but rather they will receive their own punishment for not believing and they will miss out on the reward they could have had.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

And you assume that the only God that might exist is yours. With the same evidence you provide, I could say that God rewards atheists and send theists to eternal hell. Or sends to hell only believers in Baha, etc. I mean, why not?

I do not have a God... There is only one God, the God that revealed all the religions through Messengers. That fact that different religious believers have different conceptions of God does not mean there is more than one God.

You can say whatever you want to about what you think God does, but that won’t make it the truth, not any more than what I say is true because I say it. The Truth is whatever it is, we either discover it or fail to do so.

If there is a God, it makes no sense that God would send believers to eternal hell for believing. It also makes no sense that God would reward atheists fornot believing, although He might just leave them alone and not do anything to them.

As the result of getting this kind of question a lot lately, I decided to post a new thread entitled Does it really matter if we believe in God? It will be coming soon.

 

[LuisDantas]

I was just stating a hypothetical... IF God exists.... But nobody can ever prove that so there is no reason to try to make an attempt to change anyone’s mind...

I must now ask your license for a small rant.

From where I stand I can't help but perceive that as a grave abuse of the god concept. The poor idea was never meant to stand such an overextended role... and it shows.

In essence, you have taken a somewhat useful meditation tool and forced it supporting blackmail as a supposedly religious strategy. That is a classic objection to most variants of Pascal's Wager, including ours. Pascal's Wager is a serious contender for single most damaging factor for the reputation of religion, given how self-defeating and ridiculous it is. It is way past time for anyone who cares about either religion or theism to repudiate it in no uncertain terms.

(...)

It is a human error either way.... If the Messengers of God do not carry divine authority, it is human error to believe they do, but if the Messengers of God do carry divine authority, it is human error to distort their teachings and it is also human error to turn away from them.

A nonissue far as I am concerned. It is still a very slightly variation of Pascal's Wager, and therefore not worth of much (if any) consideration, sorry to say.

I thought you were referring to these texts but I am not very proficient in either one. What do they say about nonbelievers that is so bad? Are you referring to hell?

No, actually not. Hell is also a nonissue, because it is so self-evidently contradictory a doctrine. No atheist has reason to fear such an idea.

I refer to the dehumanization proper of atheists, to the idea that there is dignity in expecting non-believers to be "in danger". That speaks very ill indeed to both the Bible and the Qur'an. There are many other devastaging criticisms to direct towards either, particularly the later, but that alone is reason enough to discard both.

I do not understand what is dangerous about betting on God.

It is wasteful; such attention could be enormously better directed towards actual religious pursuits or most anything else, even in non-religious fields.

It is misleading, because it implies a role for deity-ideas that they can never sustain.

It is actually blasphemous, because it ridicules religion by confusing it with god-worship in its grossest forms.

I am not saying that an atheist should pretend to believe in a God they do not believe in just to avoid the possibility of eternal punishment or to gain a possible eternal reward, but perhaps leaving the door open to the possibilities might be prudent.

No. It is not. It is, in fact, disrespectful and disgusting towards all parts involved.