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Featured A God Problem

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Quintessence, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    If we accept this, then this is simply bad business. Why would God not allow our knowledge of Him or His realm, etc. to increase over time? Why would we be forced to look at the same, outdated bodies of evidence and be subject to only the same old tired and worn-out methods of trying to convince people for ALL TIME? If God exists, and wants humanity to know and love Him, and this is how He chooses to operate... then shame on Him. Seriously. Shame.
     
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  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    That's all people had to go on.
     
  3. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    OK, realize that they were ethically and scientifically primitive. They couldn't know better.

    But the question was "Why would they know any more about God than I do, or any other modern person, when they were so ignorant about almost everything else?"
    Tom
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Well there haven't been any new scriptures since the first century or so.
     
  5. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Most people know better.
    Including me.
    Tom
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    There haven't been? o_O

    So much for the Qur'an, then.

    And the Book of Mormon.

    And big chunks of the New Testament.

    And the Guru Granth Sahib.

    And all the Baha'i scriptures.

    And Dianetics.

    ... etc., etc.
     
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  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I don't read Arabic. The Koran was for the people of the Arabian peninsula to get them to return to the God of Abraham. I don't consider the Book of the Mormon or Dianetics as inspired or God breathed.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    So then the Qur'an doesn't exist?

    And yet they're still scripture of various religions.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I have read the Koran.. Nothing has changed in Christian scripture or Jewish scripture.. Isn't that the discussion we're having?
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    At this point, I have no idea what discussion you're having. The one I'm having is about scripture, which I'd define as "any text held up as authoritative by a religion." It sounds like you meant something different by the word.
     
  11. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I don't think any of them are.

    I see all of them as fiction, created by humans for human purposes. Unfortunately, the older they are the more primitive they are. People were creating God in their own image. If you read the Bible, you can see this happen. The character called God changes dramatically from Genesis to Exodus through the New Testament. To me, that's solid proof that it's all fiction.
    People creating God in their own image.
    Tom
     
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  12. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    The OP is a strawman argument. If your mayor knows a crime deed, shall he send the criminal to jail right away? Is he sinning if he's not?

    God knows your deeds, but that's not how Law works. Your deeds need to be openly witnessed for Law to have you destroyed in an open judgment, once and for all.
     
  13. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    By logic. If you would hold gods as exempt from logic, then I would agree: gods and belief in them are not logical.
    The law of non contradiction
    Laws are not conscious, laws do not intervene. That doesn't mean some laws do not change.
    Difference in time.
    Yes. At one time he did not grant permission. At another he did grant permission. This constitutes a change.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That is possible but what motive would a “real” Messenger of God have to alter the message? It would seem to me that any so-called messenger who did that would be a fraud, not a Messenger sent by God.
    It is true that there is no way they can prove they got a message from God.
    It has never been the “job” of the Messengers of God to spread the message He received from God. It was always the job entrusted to His followers. Messengers of God are both human and divine by nature. They are inerrant in the way they receive and reveal messages from God.

    Humans who receive the messages might misunderstand or distort the meaning of the message but if the message is clearly written it is unlikely to be misconstrued. Translations into different languages can be done carefully so as not to lose the original meaning.
    That is where faith comes in. We either believe that the message is from God (thus correct) or not. That is based upon our trust in the Messenger, and that is why it is so important to check Him out carefully before we choose to believe He is a Messenger.

    There can be no two-way communication from God because God only communicates one way – to the Messenger. The Messenger dos not talk back to God to verify that it was God speaking to Him.
    It is not about what God is capable of doing; it is about what humans are capable of understanding. There is no way any human could ever understand direct communication from God because no human has that capacity since no human has a divine mind. Thus there is no way for God to communicate with humans without using a Messenger who acts as a “mediator” between God and man. He alone can bridge the gap because He has qualities of both God and man.
    I understand that concern, but the task that God has entrusted humans with is to differentiate between the true Messengers of God and the false messengers. Jesus put it very succinctly:

    Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Wanting is the wrong choice of words. God wills things for us. You can see that if you read what Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

    The caveat is that God loves us so God wills things for us. It is that simple. Loving us does not mean God wants or needs anything for Himself. God loves unconditionally.
    Those were excerpts from scriptures. I do not assert them, I believe them.
    Maybe not a reality that YOU experience, but many of us do experience it, which means it is possible to experience.
    I do not talk for Him; I quote what he wrote and try to explain it because many people do not understand what it means.
    Baha’is are not Messengers of God because we get no messages from God. Only Baha’u’llah got messages from God. We bring the news that Baha’u’llah has come on behalf of Baha’u’llah because He told us to. As you must know, Jesus enjoined His disciples go out to spread the “good news.” How else are people going to know?
    You are right; Moses and Jesus also gave similar advice.

    “Moses said:— When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

    Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:— Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20.”
    Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

    You are free to believe that if you want to, but I have what “I consider” good reasons to believe that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, the Messiah and the Promised One of all ages. He was one of many Messengers who have come throughout the ages, but He is the one who has the message for this age in history, just as the previous Messengers had messages that were pertinent to the age in which they appeared.

    It makes no sense to me that NO ONE ever had it right; it makes more sense to me that everyone had it right, but that there is only one particular message that applies to this age in history. The spiritual teachings of all religions are the same, so they all had that right. It is the message for this day – the oneness of mankind – and the social teachings and laws that needed to change to accommodate the changing times.
    I am so sick of hearing that hearsay argument. God does not communicate to humans directly, so the only way we can get a message from God is through a Messenger who acts as a mediator between God and man. If some people don’t like that they don’t have to believe in God or get His message. God gives us all that choice since we all have free will to choose.
    Whatever you found, you found. We do not all find the same things and that quote did not imply that we should. We won’t all come to the same conclusions because we are all different.
     
  16. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    This is a stance/belief that I simply can't understand. "Everyone" had it right? That can only be pure delusion. Religion is an unarguably fractured and messy thing. Differing beliefs abound, and it is nowhere near true that "The spiritual teachings of all religions are the same." To be able to say/believe that is to admit that you are walking through the world with blinders on.

    I think this conversation is over. Seriously... your words hold nothing of use for me. Much of your position I consider naive and so far from what I would consider correct (or even in the ballpark) that it is a complete waste of time discussing further. Take care.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Basically, I think you're saying that your problem with The Book of Mormon is primarily the fact that it exists. Am I right about that?
     
    #117 Katzpur, Apr 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I don't care about the Book of Mormon one way or another. I read it years ago. I don't believe that Jesus visited America ..

    What Jesus Christ’s Visit to the Americas Means for Us ...
    https://www.mormon.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the...

    Bible and Book of Mormon Prophets Foretold Jesus’s Birth. The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture that details God’s teachings to people who lived in the Americas from about 600 BC to AD 400. The Book of Mormon serves as a companion to the Bible’s teachings.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    What motive would an honest employee have to steal? Still, stores and banks have cameras over the tills.

    Being able to verify means that a person can be above reproach. Which is stronger confirmation that a person is relaying a message faithfully?

    - the fact that a messenger has good character, or
    - the fact that he has good character AND the fact that he would have had no opportunity to lie.

    Our judgement of a person's character can be wrong, so if your trust in the message is based entirely on your judgement of the character of the messenger, the message will always have some level of doubt.

    So then this creates a barrier to acceptance of the message.

    Why do you think God would want barriers to acceptance of his message?

    That makes the problem worse. Every set of hands the message goes through is another potential point for error to creep in. How much error? There's really no way to tell.

    ... you assume. With no real way to confirm.

    Clearly written... by the messenger, not by God, right?

    That's impossible. Even with the best translation, nuance is lost: what rhymes or has a certain meter in one language won't have this in another. A pun in one language won't be a pun in another. Idioms vary from culture to culture (and from generation to generation within the same culture).

    And translation often requires the translator to infer things that aren't in the original text: if you're translating the sentence "you look happy" into French, do you translate "you" as "tu" or "vous?" Depends on what we assume about the attitude the person speaking has toward the person they're addressing, which may or may not be clear from the text.

    Translation is partly a creative endeavor on the part of the translator.

    How could you "check him out carefully?"

    What set of things about a person could you check that could justify the conclusion "... therefore, we can trust anything that this guy says comes from God?"

    You realize that all you did here is beg the question, right?

    So then it's about what capabilities God is capable of instilling in humans.

    So regular humans don't have any way to confirm that a supposed message from God actually came from God?

    So if someone seems good, this is a sign they're a messenger?

    Even if - for reasons that you haven't really explained - God can't communicate with "non-messengers" directly, God could still do better than what you suggest he's doing now.

    For instance: many messengers. If a thousand - or even a dozen - messengers all lived at the same time, all in total agreement with each other and all supporting what each other says, any one messenger who decided to change the message could be easily spotted. It wouldn't be completely foolproof, but it would address some of the inherent problems with having one messenger at a time.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Fair enough. If you've actually read the book, then I'm fine with your opinion of it.
     
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