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Featured A God Problem

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Quintessence, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

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    I guess you need an explanation: Brahman Consciousness and Personal God are two distinct things, the latter can be proven by visiting a digital clock for messages from God on the agreement with God that the sighting of '7' as 1.15, 2.41, 3.04, 4.21, 5.20, 6.10, 7.00, 8.08, 9.07. 10.24, 11.32, etc in clock times mean God is in conversation with you, if you want that kind of thing if only to prove that He exists. Otherwise He will continue to exist as Brahman Consciousness from which you will ascertain your dharma infallibly if you merge with It.
     
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  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are correct naturally speaking but this was a supernatural event.
     
  3. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe what she said and I believe what God says.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the value is that God doesn't get angry with you for having other gods.

    I believe what you think you know is worthless and false.

    I believe there is still a problem and you are just using it as an excuse to ignore it.

    I believe there s no way to force anyone to believe. We use rational arguments to persuade but if a person' heart is evil then the person tends to be irrational.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Please note that I carefully omitted the word “objectively.” The Essence of God (which is God) cannot be objectively verified. However, the existence of God can be verified by looking at the evidence surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.
    Demonstrated means proven. I have always said that God cannot be proven to exist. Determining the existence of God is not the same as proving the existence of God.

    Determine: ascertain or establish exactly, typically as a result of research or calculation. https://www.google.com/search

    We can determine that God exists as the result of researching religions, particularly the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, since it is the best evidence for the existence of God that has ever come to mankind.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    You could conclude that. I suppose there are some skeptics who have become Christians. Is there a reason why you are drawn to Christianity in particular? If that is the only religion that you are investigating that is probably the one you will wind up with.
    God did know all of that would happen because God is All-Knowing. However, there really is no better way for God to get His messages across. Can you think of one?
    Apparently you have a background in Christianity; I have no such background. The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways so the same verses can mean different things to different people. What Bible verses gave you the idea that angels have a direct relationship with God and the idea that angels are in heaven directly in God's presence.Below are a some excerpts from longer passages wherein Baha’u’llah refers to God’s angels, and there are more references in His Writings. He does not say that the angels are directly in God’s presence, but that is possible.

    “Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt. Hasten forth and circumambulate the City of God that hath descended from heaven, the celestial Kaaba round which have circled in adoration the favored of God, the pure in heart, and the company of the most exalted angels.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16

    “This is the Day whereon the All-Merciful hath come down in the clouds of knowledge, clothed with manifest sovereignty. He well knoweth the actions of men. He it is Whose glory none can mistake, could ye but comprehend it. The heaven of every religion hath been rent, and the earth of human understanding been cleft asunder, and the angels of God are seen descending.Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

    “Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139

    “They that have forsaken their country for the purpose of teaching Our Cause—these shall the Faithful Spirit strengthen through its power. A company of Our chosen angels shall go forth with them, as bidden by Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Wise. How great the blessedness that awaiteth him that hath attained the honor of serving the Almighty!”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 334
    That is something only God has the answer to.
    If I knew what those verses were I could give you my opinion.
    No, as I said before, God cannot do evil because God is benevolent and since God is also unchanging God cannot change from benevolent to malevolent. Is there a reason that you wonder if God can do evil? Is it because of something you read in the Bible that you think means God is evil.
    That is their prerogative. They should only end up believing what they can accommodate in their own mind as true.
     
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    To me, any difference between "demonstrated," "proven," "determined," and "verified" is either hair-splitting or no difference at all.

    It gets a bit frustrating when I try to ask you questions and we end up on what I see as an irrelevant sidetrack just because I used what you see as the "wrong" synonym.

    But when you say that the Revelations of Baha'u'llah are the best evidence for God, this suggests to me that if I don't find these revelations to be convincing, I can end my search then, satisfied that God will never be verified to exist... right? After all, you seem to be saying that every other piece of evidence will be less convincing than that one... right?
     
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  8. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    No no, I'm not a Christian, I was just using the example of a skeptic converting to Christianity to show that different people can investigate and come away with different opinions, all thinking they have the right answer on religion and I wanted to know how one can differentiate between all these claims to truth if everyone can look at the same evidence and come away with contradictory ideas of what is true... clearly independent investigation isn't trustworthy since everyone can come away different opinions or maybe it's not independent investigation that's the problem but humans can't recognize truth when it's in front of them, IDK.
    He Himself could come down and reveal the messages.
    I learnt that in church growing up, I'm not sure there are verses but I was taught that the angels are worshipping God directly in heaven and that God created them in heaven.
    Revelation 4:11 is one of those verses.
    No it's not because of the Bible. But why couldn't He make us not being able to do evil like Himself?
     
    #248 Jos, Apr 20, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Let's not get caught up in semantics. It is not about who is right or wrong... I was just trying to explain what I meant... Now we can move on as I see you have a good question and I will try to answer it.
    Yes, I think that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the best evidence for God's existence, but it is not the ONLY evidence. In fact, Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures, and I believe that the Qur'an is also evidence.

    The reason I think that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the best evidence for God's existence is because it can be verified, since it is more modern, rather than dating back hundreds or thousands of years in history like the older religions. So you can verify the person of Baha'u'llah and Baha'i history and that is part of the evidence.

    But also, I think the Writings of Baha'u'llah stand as better evidence than the older religions have because (a) they were written by Him in His Own Pen, whereas no other religion has scriptures written by the Prophet Himself, and (b) their content indicates to me that they are the Voice of God.

    So to me other pieces of evidence such as the Bible are less convincing for the reasons I noted above, but they might be more convincing to other people, since we all have different standards we go by. So I would not say to end your search for God just because you do not find the Revelation of Baha'u'llah convincing. I would say to continue your search and maybe you can come back to the Baha'i Faith later with a broader perspective.
     
  10. 9-18-1

    9-18-1 Active Member

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    If: satan requires "belief" (ie. to persuade people to "believe" he/it is god)
    Then: "belief" (in any "god", potentially) opens the door to satan.

    Absent "belief", satan is also necessarily absent,
    (ie. by virtue of satan requiring it in the first place)
    which leaves none but god (if there is one)
    requiring not "belief" in it, but knowing:
    what (if) god is, or
    what (if) god is not.

    "BELIEF" IS NOT A VIRTUE

    Satan (req. "belief") has no hold over a sovereign 'I AM' who knows 'I AM'.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    So what if everyone comes away with different opinions? Not everyone is going to find the religion that is hard to find.

    Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    There are reasons why people cannot recognize the truth when it is right in front of them.

    The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

    It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
    God is Spirit. How can a Spirit come down and talk to humans in a way that we could perceive and understand Him?
    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    This was not God speaking; this was someone speaking about God, so it is just someone’s opinion of God.
    Do you mean you think God does evil?

    If God did not give us free will and a choice between good and evil we would never learn what we have to learn in this life.
     
  12. night912

    night912 New Member

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    Again, I'm not asking what made you think that . I'm asking how you were able to determine it.

    And that's why he is your god. Just because others believe in the same god, doesn't make it, not your god. Someone else believes in a different god, therefore that's their god, not yours. And you would have to provide evidence to support the assertion that your god is the only true god.

    That's not the major issue here. The problem is that a lot of people are confused when it comes to evidence. Many people believe that they are providing evidence, when actually they're just giving a claim. An example would be your "evidence" for your god. The messengers are not evidence, it's a claim.

    Why do think that.

    This claim here fails. First of all, it's a fallacy from ignorance. So your claim cannot be more logical.
     
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  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Sure, but if I decide that I find this particular piece of evidence not to be good enough, then it seems to me that you're implying that I won't find any other evidence good enough either, because the revelation of Baha'u'llah is the best we have... right?

    That's true of many things. The part I'm not clear on is how anything written by a human being can be convincing evidence for God.

    Let's assume whatever you like about Baha'u'llah's character; how do you get from what he wrote to "... therefore God exists?"

    ... or even to "... therefore God probably exists?"

    I can't see any way to do it, myself.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    By reading about Baha’u’llah, His life and mission, and by reading His Writings.
    I do not have my own God in the sense that I own God. God is everyone’s God.

    It makes no sense to me that there can be more than one God, but of course there is more than one human conception of what God is.

    The evidence that there is only one God, and it is the God represented in the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions, are those scriptures. You can say that is circular if you want to, but still, that is the evidence God provided so that is the only real evidence.
    The Messengers and the scriptures they revealed are the evidence. Their claim to be Messengers is not the evidence because that would be circular. Anyone can make a claim, but proof is necessary to back up that claim. One thus has to look at the Messengers and determine if their claims are valid claims. That requires looking at their lives, their mission, what they wrote or what was written by others on their behalf, and how their coming impacted civilization as well as the religions that were established in their names.
    Because I have no reason to believe God betrays anyone and good reason to believe that God never does. That is written in scriptures, which is the only reliable Source of information about God. Without them, people can imagine all kinds of things about God. .

    I have good reason to believe that people betray people because I have been betrayed and I have seen others betrayed.
    Why is it a fallacy from ignorance? Unless you have evidence that God thrives on human suffering that is based upon ignorance. There is no such evidence, so it is simply human conjecture based upon things some people attribute to God which are not attributable to God, since there is NO WAY to know what God is doing at any time.
     
  15. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    The day I meet someone with a firm handle on either concept, I'll be sure to ask them what they think of this.

    The day I meet someone with a firm handle on both concepts, I'll actually pay attention to their answer.

    I don't expect either of those things to happen in here any time soon. :D
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that *I consider* the Revelation of Baha’u’llah to be the *best evidence* but other people consider the Bible or the Qur’an or other scriptures to be the best evidence. It is kind of like I think Hondas are the best vehicles but other people think that Toyotas or Fords are the best vehicles.
    That is a good point, and I would be in full agreement with you IF I thought that Baha’u’llah was nothing more than a human being, because in that case there would be no good reason to believe He knew any more than anyone else, about God or anything else.

    My belief all hinges on the belief that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God (what I call a Messenger) and below is an apt description of the distinguishing characteristics between Him and an ordinary man.

    A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary human being although he has a human nature. Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station, and one the spiritual. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

    The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.
    Let me try to explain this by telling you a story of my own experience, which is really all I have. I am sure that other Baha’is came to their conclusions about God in other ways. I think that everyone has to find their own way. Obviously some people never find a way, but I believe that all things are possible if only people keep trying, because I believe that God guides those who make an effort to believe.

    Before I tell my story, I would like to say that it is not really Baha’u’llah’s character that is the best proof for me, it is what He wrote about God, and that is reflected in my story below. Of course, I am in awe of Baha’u’llah and His character, but that is a separate matter. Many men have a good character, but that does not make them a Manifestation of God.

    Okay, here is my story. I might have told you some of this before and if so please bear with me till I get to the end. I was not raised in a religious home as both of my parents who were raised Christian dropped out of the Church before we were born. So I do not recall either parent talking about God and I never wondered about God. I just never thought about God.

    Then during my first year of college, I heard about the Baha’i Faith and I was really curious so I read all the books that were available in English at that time. I was drawn to the teachings and I thought the theology made sense and I was drawn to the stories about the life of Abdu’l-Baha. At first, I could not believe it so I verified that Baha’u’llah was a real person by looking at the Encyclopedia Britannica. However, at that time I really did not understand what a Manifestation of God was. Nevertheless, I did not question that Baha’u’llah represented God. It could be that my mother, who retained a belief in God after she left the Church, had talked to me about God as a child but I cannot recall it. I know my father didn’t talk to me about God because he became an atheist after he left the Church.

    What is important to note is that I did not really believe in God back then, although I accepted that God existed, so my belief did not have much of an impact upon my life. Because of that and other personal problems I had at that time, I fell away from the Baha’i Faith for the most part for many decades, and as time went on I fell further and further way from it.

    Yet I still believed that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, that never changed. I just did not want anything to do with the Baha’i Faith but I don’t remember exactly why. All I can remember is that I was really angry at God for many years because I thought God was punishing me in order to teach me a lesson, because a Baha’i who I thought knew more than me had told me that and I did not question it. Back then, I did not question everything the way I do now.

    Anyhow, to try to make a long story shorter I came to a point in my life when nothing was helping me with the problems I had at that time so I decided that I wanted to do something different. It was not something I remember as being a conscious decision, but in retrospect I realized I was searching for something that could help me because despite all the counseling I had gone for no counselor had been able to help me with a specific problem that had tormented me for many, many years. Other than that problem, I was doing just fine, managing the many problems I had in my life quite well.

    So one day I did a Google search for something related to my particular problem and I ended up at Planet Baha’i. The rest is history. Mind you, I had never been on an internet forum before that time. So I got to know some Baha’is and started to change my attitude towards God, realizing that I had received false information about God punishing me; that was not the case at all, it was simply one Baha’i’s misinterpretation of the Baha’i writings that had led me astray for almost 10 years. So I started on the road to understanding more about God and what the Baha’i Faith actually teaches about God from Baha’is who had been actively involved in the Faith for decades.

    I was learning more about God from Baha’is but I was not reading much for myself because I was not motivated to and I was too busy on forums. In June 2013 I endured a crisis of astronomic proportions and I have no idea how I got through that. But still, I do not recall that I had much of a connection to God, or a real understanding of God.

    It was not until June 2014 when that all changed by a life-changing spiritual experience. An intuitive part of me was telling me I had to do something different than I had done a year before, so I asked my husband to give me a book called Gleanings so I could read it while I was riding the bus to and from work. On the way home from work that day, I was reading Gleanings from the beginning and I never recalled reading that part before.

    Anyhow, it suddenly hit me that Baha’u’llah was speaking for God, and from that day on I was never the same. I now knew God existed, I did not just believe it half-heartedly. I now wanted to read everything I could that Baha’u’llah had written but my main focus was on Gleanings and The Kitab-i-Iqan because these books contain what is most important to understand about God and Manifestations of God I read both books over and over until the main concepts were firmly planted in my mind.

    After this spiritual experience in June 2014, I got more serious about the forums I started my own forum in October 2014, which was very active for a while until I ventured off to another forum, the one that was comprised of mostly atheists. I never knew anything about atheists before I went to that forum because you do not meet many atheists in the United States and I am not very social. On that forum, I started to get questions from many atheists and some Christians, so I had to look things up in the books and explain things to people, and that further solidified what I already knew from my reading.

    So I just continued to learn more and more and this became my passion, although I still had many things to tend to in my real life. I still never got involved with bahais in muy community but the reasons why are complex and somewhat private. Suffice to say, I met many Baha’is on forums so I had a lot of contact with Baha’is, as well as with my husband who is a very strong Baha’is. I will add that despite the fact that I now knew God existed I still has issues with God, for the same reasons some atheists have issues with the idea of God. I could not understand why a loving God allows suffering for example, not just mine which has been extensive, but suffering in general.

    As time marched on and I posted to more and more people on forums, I came to make peace with suffering. Although loving God is still not easy for me, I do not hate God anymore, and I kind of like Him. Not only that, I have total faith that whatever happens to me now is the Will of God and I simply accept that rather than fighting it. My life is no picnic but with God I can endure it a lot better than ever before. Before, I would worry about the future all the time, but now I just live one day at a time. Other people and my animals matter most to me. I do not feel a need for anything for myself so I am not disappointed that I presently have no time for myself. This too shall pass if it is meant to be. I have no idea what the future holds.
     
  17. ACEofALLaces

    ACEofALLaces Member

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    The biggest problem with this alleged Revelation of Baha’u’llah, is not even THAT can be adequately verified as to it authenticity, other than what Baha’u’llah says and wrote.
    IOW, Baha’u’llah can be verified, but not necessarily the veracity of what he has said, pertaining to his SOURCE.
     
  18. ACEofALLaces

    ACEofALLaces Member

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    The very same way that He communicated with Adam and Eve and later on with Cain after he murdered his brother Abel...to begin with.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    True, what Baha'u'llah wrote has been verified as to its authenticity, but nobody can verify the SOURCE because the SOURCE is God and God is UNverifiable. :D
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were not a Bible believer. o_O
    I do not believe there was a literal Adam and Eve as portrayed in Genesis... I believe that was a metaphorical story... I do not know about Cain, I am not adept in the Bible.

    God did speak to some people in the Bible through the Holy Spirit, but God is not going to speak to everyone in the world that way, because not everyone has a mind that is equipped to hear the Voice of God.
     
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