A God Problem

[night912]

I came to that conclusion because I believe Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God and I believe what He wrote about that. The only way to know anything about God’s Will is from what the Messenger reveals since the Will of the Messenger is identical with the Will of God.

I'm not asking what made you think that. I'm asking how did you know?

How do you think that I can demonstrate to you that what I believe is the truth? Why would I be obligated to demonstrate that to others just because I believe it?

And that was my point. It's your belief that, therefore it's your god.

It makes no sense to me that God would send believers to hell for believing in Him. Why would God do that? That is as much as saying that God does not want us to believe in Him. Why do you think that would be the case?

Same reason that you as yours. It makes sense.

Why do you think that being tortured by the very god they believe in, some even as a savior, will hurt even more than hell?

Because betrayal is one more thing that is added.

Why do you think it is possible that God thrives on others’ suffering?

Because any being with a mind is capable, making it possible .

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think I said that your beliefs are false?

No, you did not say that. Sorry, if I implied that.

Well, no. Some ways of "justifying" a conclusion are demonstrably wrong or unreliable.

Perhaps. What are those?

It's certainly unreasonable to set the bar too low. If a person's standards are so low that, if they were applied consistently, contradictory ideas would both be accepted, then the standard is clearly unable to tell truth from falsehood and is therefore too low.

At the upper end, sure: reasonable people can disagree on how high is too high... but I've never seen anyone set the bar low enough that one religion can clear it but other religions - preaching that the first religion is wrong - also clear it.

Glad I asked... Okay, that sounds like reasonable criteria.

If two people "reason differently," then at least one of them is wrong.

Not necessarily, because more than one way of reasoning can be right. But if two people come to two different conclusions that are mutually exclusive, then one of them is wrong; e.g., if one person concludes that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet and another person concludes that he was a Messenger of God, one of them is wrong.

It's fine for people to disagree about values and aesthetics, but inferring facts about physical reality isn't arbitrary.

That is true, but physical reality can denote different things to different people. Some people might understand that all the flowers that exist on Mount Carmel to be a sign that Baha’u’llah fulfilled the Isaiah blossoming desert prophecies, whereas others do not interpret that physical reality the same way.

It had been prophesied that when the Messiah came, the desert would blossom as the rose. Isaiah foretold clearly:

Isaiah 35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Okay. Personally, I tend not to look for deep explanations when I don't accomplish things I didn't set out to do. YMMV, apparently.

I am not sure exactly what you mean; what kinds of things? If I do not accomplish what I set out to do I sometimes wonder why not, but I usually accept that it was simply not meant to be, after I have struggled long enough to accomplish it. I am very willful and I like to accomplish what I set out to do, but I do not insist on the outcome, especially if it involves other people. I never try to convince or convert other people to my beliefs or my values but sometimes I have to insist on things, such as in a business situation when I am renting my houses or hiring contractors.

You mean this (quoted from your link)?

Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being.​

This seems to be a more flowery way of expressing the same sentiment that I paraphrased earlier: if someone isn't convinced, then it isn't because there's something wrong with the message; it's because there's something wrong with the unconvinced person. It's no less insulting the way Baha'u'llah phrased it.

No, you are reading too much into the passage. Prophets write in flowery language in order to stir the soul. The question is how literally do we interpret this language? I do not think that any True Seeker has all the qualities in that Tablet; it is simply that Baha’u’llah wanted to convey an ideal state of the soul. I do not know any Baha’i who lives up to what Baha’u’llah enjoins us to achieve, myself included. I can tell you for a fact that I did not have earnest striving, longing desire, passionate devotion, fervid love, rapture, or ecstasy kindled in my heart before or after I became Baha’i , but nevertheless I have no doubts or misgivings and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop my being. I came to the Baha’i Faith my way of my mind, not my heart, and I still struggle to have feelings in my heart for God. You might have noticed that I do not talk like some other Baha’is on this forum, about loving God. I understand the concept, but I have yet to translate that into an emotion.

Baha’u’llah never said there is something wrong with the unconvinced. He only ever said we all have the capacity to recognize God through the Manifestation, not that we would all be able to.

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143​

Again, Baha’u’llah is stating an ideal. I am sure God is well aware that we all have different capacities.And what He is saying is that we are able to discover truth all by ourselves, without help from anyone else. That does not mean other people cannot help, but that the final decision to believe has to come from the seeker.

Do you have any room in your worldview for an earnest, sincere, devoted person who strives for truth but ends up disagreeing with you?

Absolutely, there are many such people who strive for truth yet do not agree with me. Some of them are my atheist friends on other forums who I have been posting to for many years.However, there are other atheists on those forums who are not earnest, sincere, or devoted; all they do is make fun of my beliefs and insult me constantly. I finally left the forum where that was happening. If people do not agree with my beliefs, all they have to do is say so, they do not have to insult me personally. Moreover, if they are really secure in their own atheism they would have no need to insult me.They could argue for their position and leave personalities aside.

On that forum, there is one atheist who I consider very respectful, and he never insulted me, although he adamantly disagrees with me about Messengers and about God. From what he has told me he did his due diligence, and even if he has not looked carefully at the Baha’i Faith, he has looked at other religions since he dropped out of Christianity and became an atheist. I consider him a sincere, devoted person who strives for truth, even though he does not agree with me. The rest of them can take a hike as far as I am concerned, because they have no interest in learning anything new, like the atheists and agnostics on this forum. They just live in an echo chamber. As I asked the forum owner, if what I believe is so ridiculous why does it bother you so much? The Christians on his forum do not bother him and he allows them to post about their beliefs. just not Baha’is.

I certainly do not expect that all people are going to agree with me and become Baha’is. That would be highly arrogant as well as very unrealistic. Sure, I believe what I do with absolute certitude, but there are reasons for that. Some can be explained but some are beyond explanation. Ever since I became a Baha’i at age 17, I knew that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, but it was all intellectual. Although it was always in the back of my mind, it did not have any profound effect upon my life until the last six years when I started to take it very seriously and put forth a lot more effort. I now know things I never knew before about Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith because I live and breathe it.

I wouldn't say that anyone who's fallen for homeopathy hook, line and sinker has a "logical mind."

I would ask that you leave homeopathy out of this. It is a debatable topic and I did not fall for it hook, line and sinker. I am sure there is much I do not know about it, but I did not continue to pursue it after I studied it because I went off on another life path. Had I decided to practice it, I would have put it under closer scrutiny.

... and you have accepted things that I dismiss as outlandish whether in Christianity, the Baha'i faith, or any other religion that preaches them, such as the existence of an intelligent god who is concerned with humanity, and the existence of "messengers"/prophets who this god has given special messages to.

Of course I know that atheists consider the same things outlandish, and then I ask them why they consider them outlandish, but I usually do not get any answers that make any sense to me, if I get any answers at all.

So now I will ask you why you dismiss those as outlandish. If there was a God, why wouldn’t He be intelligent and why wouldn’t He be concerned with the humans He created, and why wouldn’t He send Messengers with messages to benefit humanity and help them along on their spiritual path?

In other words, why doesn’t this make sense to you, or is it just the whole idea of any God at all that does not make sense to you?

 

[Jos]

As for the things the Bible says that God did, I would certainly not take them to the bank. The Bible is an ancient book written by fallible humans and all of it was never intended to be interpreted literally. Humans have no way of knowing what God did, so if there was even a flood, there is no way to know it was “caused” by God.

Couldn't a Christian just claim that you have the wrong interpretation and that their interpretation is correct? And especially if they say that the Holy Spirit taught them that their interpretation is correct?

 

[Jos]

God does have regularities, in the form of unchanging Attributes, but God transcends all His Attributes.

So God can transcend goodness or love but what would it mean to transcend love or goodness if those are the highest values and there's nothing beyond them?

 

[Jos]

God wants us to use our own innate ability to reason and sincerely search for the evidence of His existence. God only wants us to believe by virtue of our own free will choices and that is why God does not reach out to us and draw us near to Him.

I thought God wanted people to come to know Him based on faith not reason, in fact, I thought reason was a hindrance to truly knowing God and also God has revealed Himself to people and violated their free will eg. Paul on the road to Damascus and atheists who had God reveal Himself to them when they weren't searching for Him. Also you said earlier that you think it's impossible for anyone to have a personal relationship with God but doesn't that contradict Christianity and isn't the purpose of human existence to know God?

 

[Jos]

Thanks, my life is very stressful right now, has been for a very long time, but some things are starting to look up a little. One day at a time is my mantra.

I do not understand your logic.

Briefly, I believe that God is responsible for all of existence but humans evolved over time and at some point humans became a species separate from animals. Because humans have a soul, humans are instilled with two natures; a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature. Heck, it is just easier to post the quote that explains this:

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60​

So God instilled in us the capacity to sin, but God also gave us free will so we can choose to sin or not sin. God is not responsible for our choices because we have free will to choose. God wanted it to be that way because by making moral choices we develop our character, we become who we are in this world and who we will be in the afterlife.

Yes, God allows sin to exist because it teaches us the lessons we need to learn in order to develop our character. Sine we also learn and grow by interacting with others, the sinfulness of others tests us and makes us stronger if we survive the tests.

Why can’t it be right? Why can’t an All-Knowing and All-Powerful God instill in us a higher nature and a lower nature and free will so we can choose to act according to either nature?

I agree with all of the above, but how does that make God responsible for human sin?Do you think that what God KNOWS humans will do determines what humans will do?

Here is my view: God knows what we will do because God is All-Knowing, but God does not cause it to happen, we do. Thus we play out our own script according to what God already knows we will do. God does not play out the script by causing things to happen; we cause things to happen by virtue of the free will decisions that we make and the actions that follow. God knows how the script will play out before it plays out because God is omniscient.

God is also All-Wise, because it would not work very well for God to be All-Knowing if God did not know how to apply all His knowledge.

For a being that you claim is completely self sustaining, it's weird that He has wants and wanted to create humans and wanted love and relationship from humans and stuff...

 

[Jos]

God does not want anything from us because God does not need anything from us. God wants us to love Him so His Love will reach us, because if we close out hearts off God’s Love cannot reach us.

Isn't this a contradiction? In one sentence, God doesn't want anything but in another sentence, God wants love from humans... which is it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Couldn't a Christian just claim that you have the wrong interpretation and that their interpretation is correct? And especially if they say that the Holy Spirit taught them that their interpretation is correct?

A Christian can claim anything they want to claim, but that does not make it true, not anymore than what I claim makes my claim true.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives in side of people teaching them things. That is not a Baha'i belief. The salient problem with the Holy Spirit teaching them is that different Christians believe contradictory things, so do you think that God would contradict Himself?

 

[Jos]

God isn't perfect.

Why call Him God if He's not perfect? Isn't perfection built into the definition/character of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

So God can transcend goodness or love but what would it mean to transcend love or goodness if those are the highest values and there's nothing beyond them?

That God transcends His attributes means that God is above all His attributes, that He is not circumscribed by them. A way to think of it is that God is exalted beyond description.

To further elaborate, transcendence means that God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. God transcends and is independent of all His creatures. God exercises undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, all existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought God wanted people to come to know Him based on faith not reason, in fact, I thought reason was a hindrance to truly knowing God and also God has revealed Himself to people and violated their free will eg. Paul on the road to Damascus and atheists who had God reveal Himself to them when they weren't searching for Him. Also you said earlier that you think it's impossible for anyone to have a personal relationship with God but doesn't that contradict Christianity and isn't the purpose of human existence to know God?

God wants us to use our reason in order to determine the Truth. Religion should be reasonable, otherwise it is not worthy of our belief. If we do not use our logical mind we might end up believing in a religion that is not true.
However, we also have to have faith, since nobody can actually prove that God exists.

What I meant is that we cannot have a personal relationship with God directly, we have to go through the Messengers of God in order to relate to God, as they are the mediators between God and man. Even Christians go through Jesus to relate to God.

Yes, the purpose of human existence is to know and worship God. That is stated in the Baha'i prayer...

Short Obligatory Prayer

TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS, AT NOON.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

Bahá’u’lláh

Short Obligatory Prayer

 

[Trailblazer]

For a being that you claim is completely self sustaining, it's weird that He has wants and wanted to create humans and wanted love and relationship from humans and stuff...

God wants us to love Him, not because He needs our love, but because it is beneficial for us to love God. Don't get me wrong; God does love us, but God does not need our love, since God has no needs... These Hidden Words explain what I am trying to say:

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[Trailblazer]

"God does not want anything from us because God does not need anything from us. God wants us to love Him so His Love will reach us, because if we close out hearts off God’s Love cannot reach us."

Isn't this a contradiction? In one sentence, God doesn't want anything but in another sentence, God wants love from humans... which is it?

God wants us to love Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit. Everything we get from God is for our benefit because God does not need anything... Maybe these will help:

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess. If ye believe, to your own behoof will ye believe; and if ye believe not, ye yourselves will suffer.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 166

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh,pp. 260

 

[Trailblazer]

Why call Him God if He's not perfect? Isn't perfection built into the definition/character of God?

I believe so, but apparently not all believers believe so.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I came to that conclusion because I believe Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God and I believe what He wrote about that. The only way to know anything about God’s Will is from what the Messenger reveals since the Will of the Messenger is identical with the Will of God.”

I'm not asking what made you think that. I'm asking how did you know?

I know because of the evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God. That is why I have certitude that my beliefs are the truth from God.

“How do you think that I can demonstrate to you that what I believe is the truth? Why would I be obligated to demonstrate that to others just because I believe it?”

And that was my point. It's your belief that, therefore it's your god.

No, I do not have a God of my own. It is the God I believe in but many other people believe in the same God.

“It makes no sense to me that God would send believers to hell for believing in Him. Why would God do that? That is as much as saying that God does not want us to believe in Him. Why do you think that would be the case?”

Same reason that you as yours. It makes sense.

Okay, different things make sense to different people. That is one reason why not all people view the evidence the same way.

“Why do you think that being tortured by the very god they believe in, some even as a savior, will hurt even more than hell?”

Because betrayal is one more thing that is added.

That’s true, betrayal does hurt, but I do not think God betrays anyone, people betray people.

“Why do you think it is possible that God thrives on others’ suffering?”

Because any being with a mind is capable, making it possible.

That is true, it is logically possible, but it is more logical to believe that humans thrive on other human suffering, because we have ample evidence of that, whereas we have no evidence that God thrives on human suffering.

 

[Jos]

That God transcends His attributes means that God is above all His attributes, that He is not circumscribed by them. A way to think of it is that God is exalted beyond description.

To further elaborate, transcendence means that God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. God transcends and is independent of all His creatures. God exercises undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, all existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things.

Can He be evil if He wanted to?

 

[Jos]

A Christian can claim anything they want to claim, but that does not make it true, not anymore than what I claim makes my claim true.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives in side of people teaching them things. That is not a Baha'i belief. The salient problem with the Holy Spirit teaching them is that different Christians believe contradictory things, so do you think that God would contradict Himself?

Fair enough but doesn't Christianity as a whole pose a problem for the Baha'i faith since it teaches that it's the exclusive truth? And can't Christians just say that they agree on the fundamentals of the faith and that's what matters as a response to the idea that "the Holy Spirit teaches Christians contradictory things"?

 

[Jos]

God wants us to use our reason in order to determine the Truth. Religion should be reasonable, otherwise it is not worthy of our belief. If we do not use our logical mind we might end up believing in a religion that is not true.
However, we also have to have faith, since nobody can actually prove that God exists.

Don't many religions pride themselves on being unreasonable and God being mysterious and unknowable and beyond reason therefore one needs to humble oneself and have faith in order to see God since reason and rationality won't get you far or anywhere at all? Isn't religion about the suspension of our rational faculties?

What I meant is that we cannot have a personal relationship with God directly, we have to go through the Messengers of God in order to relate to God, as they are the mediators between God and man. Even Christians go through Jesus to relate to God.

But God is all powerful so why couldn't He create us so that we could have a direct relationship with Him like how I assume angels have a direct relationship with Him?

Yes, the purpose of human existence is to know and worship God. That is stated in the Baha'i prayer...

Why does He want worship so badly even if it benefits us? Isn't it a bit egocentric to want worship all the time?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can He be evil if He wanted to?

No, God cannot be evil, because God is by His nature good.
God's nature cannot change.

 

[Jos]

God wants us to love Him, not because He needs our love, but because it is beneficial for us to love God. Don't get me wrong; God does love us, but God does not need our love, since God has no needs... These Hidden Words explain what I am trying to say:

God wants us to love Him for our own benefit, not for His benefit. Everything we get from God is for our benefit because God does not need anything... Maybe these will help:

Why does the Bible say that we were created for God's pleasure then?