Force what? I can't answer that question like this. It's a very broad one. Of course there are things that will be forced to preserve the best interest of the society and to prevent harm and there are others which you can't force. And this is the case in any society. Maybe what we will disagree on is our definition of "the best interest" and "harm".
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A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
No, I follow a religion which has been followed by ancient and recent Muslims in different parts of the globe. Islam exceeds time and place.
You have been repeatedly telling me what I would most likely do, and it became very annoying. When I tell you I would do so and so, don't ever tell me you would do the opposite. You don't know me, you don't know how I make my decisions and choices and you don't know my intentions. The issue of face covering vs non face covering and the different opinions regarding it are very well known to Muslims because it's a very old issue, the disagreement about it is not new at all.
Why are we supposed to be transported to a different society if you say we can choose to follow principles that are different from those of the surrounding culture and society?
Yeah by calling those who disagree with you "fanatical"!!
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Mr Spinkles
Mr
Yes, Islam exceeds time and place the same way an Amish town exceeds time and place. Traditional Islam exceeds every time and place, that is, except for 8th century Arabia.
I didn't mean "you" personally, I meant you, me -- everybody. We know for a fact that people who grow up in certain cultures tend to accept certain ideas, the same would presumably be true of anyone growing up in those cultures.
I don't understand your question. Could you clarify?not4me said:
Let me try to understand where you're coming from: some sheiks order people not to be friends with anyone from a different religion. I express my opinion that this is fanatical, because I think everyone should be open to being friends with people of different religions. You have no problem with the sheiks' view. But my view is closed-minded and insulting, apparently.not4me said:
Did I miss something?
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No, there is no except. The 7th century Arabia witnessed the rise of a new religion. The new religion attracted followers. They are followers of that religion like me and other Muslims. When they followed Islam, they changed a lot of their beliefs and behaviors and formed a new society based on that religion. Islam corrected the wrong beliefs and practices of pre-Islamic Arabia and provided solutions to eradicate them and sometimes the solutions took a very gradual coarse. On the other hand, Islam emphasized the good things there and purified some existent beliefs and practices from shirk. Just like I wish my society to become a good Islamic society. True that the Muslim doesn't follow the surrounding culture blindly but also he doesn't reject the cultural elements that don't contradict with his religion i.e Islam is the reference.
I was asking YOU specifically and you were talking about me and my personal opinion of the modest dress. This was the context of our talk exchange.
I have a problem with you in this thread. You keep changing what you say and its context. 1st you appreciate modesty and you blamed me much for saying "nakedness" and bikini contests as if they are inappropriate and insulting, then it appeared you basically don't have a problem with nudity. So what was all this fuss about? I don't understand.
Then, you pointed to Al-Hour Al-Ein and them being a source of pleasure for men, and when I replied to you by talking about the Islamic view of sex, you told me that you weren't talking about sex but about swimming pools!!!
Then you asked me how I would act if niqab was the norm of my culture then now you weren't talking about me but everyone.
You spoke of how Islam was defined according to an ancient society "I didn't say Islam was formed from pre-Islamic Arabian society. I said its principles and behavior are defined according to a particular ancient society." but now you were talking about me not Islam..."I'm saying that you seem to derive your beliefs and practices according to a particular society" and I wonder if by "you" you mean me specifically or me, you and everybody? :sarcastic
And when you labeled the sheiks as fanatical, the context of the talk was about swimming pool, modesty, physical beauty now it became about friendship.
Every time I reply to your posts, you tell me I didn't say so and so but I said so and so...and this has been along the course of the thread...
No wonder that I keep repeating my points. I find myself unable to communicate well with you in that thread and I feel I was talking to a different person, you used to be more honest, straight and respectful. You are very weird in this thread. I am afraid I don't have anything else to add about these topics.
MohammedArabia
New Member
"A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims. However, when the Jews, Christians, or others offer Salam (greetings), he should reply "Wa `Alaykum" (the same to you) ... These are some of the rights the non-Muslims have on Muslims. This also includes the right of being a good neighbor. You must not harm your non-Muslim neighbors. You should give them charity if they are needy."
Response:: I can not confirm the first sentence in this fatwa. You have not clarified to me or should I say to us the sentence as I quoted ''A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims''. I am confused does this mean you have to wait for the non-muslim to greet you or does this mean you can not begin giving them the greeting of Islam ''Salam wa Alaykam'' ''peace be upon you''.
"It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), for this is considered an act of loyalty to them which is Haram (prohibited). However, consoling them is acceptable."
Response:: It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), if you mean not engaging in their religous pratices which go against the root principle of Islam then you are right.
"Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood between a Muslim and a Kafir are prohibited. It might render a Muslim as a Kafir. There is nothing wrong, however, if the kind of relationship developed between the Muslim and Kafir does not go beyond selling and buying or accepting the Kafir's invitation to have lawful food with him or accepting a lawful present, provided that no harm is done to the Muslim's faith."
Response:: Well, a Muslim is permitted to have a non-muslim as a close friend as long as he can do so without it interefering with his Islamic faith in anyway. The Friend must not be of the opposite gender as this will lead to unlawful male-female love relationship in Islam. You can not engage in any activity with your friend if doing so would violate your Islamic faith such as drinking(alcohol), attending church for religous pratice, engaging in unlawful sex acts etc . . . . . Haven't they ever thought that if a non-muslim and muslim have a close friendship that could lead the non-muslim converting to Islam in the short or long-term eventually. I believe its more of an environment and what kind of faimly you were brought up with that depends on what path you choose in this life. But in rare case(s) a non-muslim friend can sufficiently divert from Islam.
So the Saudi's just presented with proof of how Ignorant they are. I bet you that American muslim scholars are alot more knowledgeable than the Saudi government.
Response:: I can not confirm the first sentence in this fatwa. You have not clarified to me or should I say to us the sentence as I quoted ''A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims''. I am confused does this mean you have to wait for the non-muslim to greet you or does this mean you can not begin giving them the greeting of Islam ''Salam wa Alaykam'' ''peace be upon you''.
"It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), for this is considered an act of loyalty to them which is Haram (prohibited). However, consoling them is acceptable."
Response:: It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), if you mean not engaging in their religous pratices which go against the root principle of Islam then you are right.
"Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood between a Muslim and a Kafir are prohibited. It might render a Muslim as a Kafir. There is nothing wrong, however, if the kind of relationship developed between the Muslim and Kafir does not go beyond selling and buying or accepting the Kafir's invitation to have lawful food with him or accepting a lawful present, provided that no harm is done to the Muslim's faith."
Response:: Well, a Muslim is permitted to have a non-muslim as a close friend as long as he can do so without it interefering with his Islamic faith in anyway. The Friend must not be of the opposite gender as this will lead to unlawful male-female love relationship in Islam. You can not engage in any activity with your friend if doing so would violate your Islamic faith such as drinking(alcohol), attending church for religous pratice, engaging in unlawful sex acts etc . . . . . Haven't they ever thought that if a non-muslim and muslim have a close friendship that could lead the non-muslim converting to Islam in the short or long-term eventually. I believe its more of an environment and what kind of faimly you were brought up with that depends on what path you choose in this life. But in rare case(s) a non-muslim friend can sufficiently divert from Islam.
So the Saudi's just presented with proof of how Ignorant they are. I bet you that American muslim scholars are alot more knowledgeable than the Saudi government.
Does the fact that nobody addressed the cinema ruling means that we all agree its ridiculous? (As i didn't see any posts addressing it).
Just in case, cinemas obviously aren't haram or wrong in an Islamic view, that entirely depends on what is shown in it. So, forbidding people by the law to build cinemas is obviously ridiculous. Even saying that it is wrong in general is stupid.
Just in case, cinemas obviously aren't haram or wrong in an Islamic view, that entirely depends on what is shown in it. So, forbidding people by the law to build cinemas is obviously ridiculous. Even saying that it is wrong in general is stupid.
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EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
I think we all agree on this, and that's why no one addresses the issue.
Of course not, it's not ridiculous. Are we going to appoint ourselves scholars, Badran?
They cited the reasons for forbidding it and that is basically due to the kind of movies that are usually presented. If the cinema is not going to present movies that don't contradict with Islam, then what would be the point? Since say 99% of the movies must contain scenes that go against Islam...
Also, I have read a fatwa on OnIslam that it's basically forbidden to work in the film industry:
“The film industry is at present in the hands of people who do not know and do not care for Islamic values. It is very difficult for an observant Muslim to behave as a good Muslim and work in the film industry. However, this should not stop Muslims who have such talent to develop their own Islamic filming programs and institutions. Film is a very effective and powerful medium. It can be a tool for healthy entertainment, moral education and Islamic da`wah. Muslims can use this tool but they have to work very hard. They need resources and sincere commitment to Islamize the film industry.”
Can I Work in the Film Industry? - OnIslam.net
As he said this field need to be Islamized first but at the present time, if you built a Cinema that is committed to Islamic rulings, it wouldn't work because what is presented in the films' market does contradict with Islam most of the time.
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
I think this is the same thing that Badran said and I seconded. However, in a general perspective, Cinemas are not "generally" forbidden because they merely depend on their contents.
There are many individuals who pioneered in Islamic cinema, and Islamic video clips, and I find this very clever, not Haram!
Okay, that means the cinema will be closed most of the time, until it shows a movie that doesn't contradict with Islamic teachings which happen very rarely. As I said 99% of the movies must have some scenes that are not in accordance with Islam.
In the current time, the cinemas basically don't have a problem with showing haram stuff.Secondly, I can't issue fatwas to say if it's forbidden or not but at least this fatwa is sensible for the reasons that were cited.
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Badran and Einstein, I can think of this issue like the issue of banks. Unless you build an Islamic bank, majority of the banks deal with riba (interest) which is forbidden. Until we have an "Islamic Cinema", we can talk but in the current time, we don't have any.
Meow Mix, honestly I don't know...
Meow Mix, honestly I don't know...
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
We can not say that "banks" are haram, just because "most of them" deal with riba!
It's like saying that being an engineer is haram, because night clubs are built by engineers!
I know little, of course, about Iftaa (the science of Fatwa), but I've been taught that for a Fatwa to be valid (Emam Shafe'y speaking) it must not generalize, and must contain very detailed descriptions for the cases in which the Fatwa would be applied.
And since I learned this, it became my compass to validate the quality of a Fatwa. If the scholar who issued the fatwa provided detailed justifications, and wasn't irrationally generalizing, then I'd probably prefer his Fatwa over another one that is just emotionally packed.
I don't like the traditional Saudi style of Iftaa' because it tends to be heavily biased according to their personal "feelings" formed mainly by their cultural background.
I won't generalize this, though, because there are many great Saudi scholars.
It's like saying that being an engineer is haram, because night clubs are built by engineers!
I know little, of course, about Iftaa (the science of Fatwa), but I've been taught that for a Fatwa to be valid (Emam Shafe'y speaking) it must not generalize, and must contain very detailed descriptions for the cases in which the Fatwa would be applied.
And since I learned this, it became my compass to validate the quality of a Fatwa. If the scholar who issued the fatwa provided detailed justifications, and wasn't irrationally generalizing, then I'd probably prefer his Fatwa over another one that is just emotionally packed.
I don't like the traditional Saudi style of Iftaa' because it tends to be heavily biased according to their personal "feelings" formed mainly by their cultural background.
I won't generalize this, though, because there are many great Saudi scholars.
I think you already know that i don't look at things the way you do in this part. I don't need to be anyway near the status of a scholar in order to argue something, or to view this fatwa as ridiculous. My arguments are based on Islamic teachings, which are concerned with this particular subject, and based on mere common sense.
That still doesn't mean cinema is haram or forbidden. It means most films contain things that are haram. And that can be solved in other ways than forbidding cinema altogether. I also don't think the percentage is quite that high. I agree that right now most movies display bad things, however like i said its not a reason to say cinema is haram and forbidden to be built especially if you're going to enforce that by the law. Its a very poor way of putting things.
If the fatwa is saying that for example one shouldn't work for a production company that usually makes movies that contains bad stuff, i agree. I understand they are saying that for example if you make your own movie, and direct it and so on, then thats okay right? If so i agree with this fatwa. However, it still doesn't mean that cinema is haram, or that we should enforce by the law that it shouldn't be built.
There is an important point that i should mention here. Not every thing that is not going according to Islamic teachings should be enforced not to appear in a movie, only certain things. For example, if a movie contains someone saying stuff that aren't Islamic, opinions that contradicts Islam i mean, should we stop the movie? Of course not. However, if a movie contains a sex scene for example, thats a different story. Another example. If a movie contains a scene with someone smoking or even killing someone, should we stop such movie? I don't think so. In other words, only few things would give us the right to stop such movie.
aymen amir
peace
if u read them carefully u will notice that they all come from the two main sources of Islam Quran and sunnah
Badran, you make total sense to me, and i agree; fatwas of the past were based on specific questions and specific incidents...very rarely was a general sweeping fatwa made (ie, this WHOLE industry is forbidden).
Meow Mix, as far as i know, non-Muslims living in Muslim countries do not have the same laws applied to them, but i could be mistaken. i'll look into it and let you know what i find out.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
So what you are saying is that you are in favor of censorship when things intrude on your vision of what is right or wrong. How is your viewpoint any different from Not4me's, although it does appear she would not sit through as much as you might. In effect, you both favor censorship when you are presented with things that contradict your values.
How so?
Lets take the flower fatwa for example.
Firstly, its very naively worded, and its conclusion is just wrong. It is based on two things:
1) wasting money (which is a very hard thing to put a certain line to say what is to be considered wasting money and what is not).
2) Imitating Allah's adversaries.
The second reason has two problems:
a) Who is Allah's adversaries? Westerners? Do you believe such a word should be used so carelessly to describe people?
Once we know who exactly are they talking about, we could decide then wether or not we're really imitating Allah's adversaries.
b) Lets say that someone who is generally bad, but has a good habit. That habit he has, i don't have myself. Is it wrong to be inspired by him and do like he does in that particular area in which he is actually doing a good thing?
What i'm saying is censorship should only apply to things which are illegal.
And since public display of sex in Islamic countries are illegal, it shouldn't be in a movie neither.
Murder in a movie is not really murder. Nobody died. However, in sex stuff, we do see things that if we saw in the street the people doing this would be arrested. You see what i'm saying?
Its a difficult line to determine anyway, however what i'm certainly not saying, is that we should censor things based on my vision, that is not what i'm saying.
Badran, in essence we don't disagree. Cinemas in its current form display the bad which is the majority and the good. If you presented an alternative Cinema that doesn't display the bad, I am with you. Until now I never heard there is such a cinema, did you?
Yes, of course.
The current cinemas display haram things, do you disagree?
Well, if the movie encourages haram and makes it easier, then based on the principle of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, such movies shouldn't be allowed. Not just sex/love scenes, Badran. There are may other haram things.