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A frustrating life?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Geoff-Allen, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps - but I was 'in the dragnet' when we still believed everyone was "doing that". And I think you know what I mean - the dragnet interpretation changed in the 1990s I think (or maybe 80s) - perhaps you don't remember that far back? Anyway, its not that important - who cares about an ancient and unsuitable fish anyway? :D
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    I go back to 1970 and nothing has shifted me or shaken my faith in the slightest. I went through 1975 and came out the other side unscathed....imagine a faith that can't be shaken by humans serving a year instead of the sovereignty of their God. If I am not in this relationship with God forever, then "what's in it for me" becomes more important that the rightfulness of his sovereignty.

    I like what God is offering and he tells me how to qualify for it.....the only one standing in the way of my achieving it...is me. [​IMG]

    The ones who have to clean up the smelly carcasses I suppose..... [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    IBSA used to use the cross in worship, too. And Christmas was celebrated. But when Jehovah's standards (righteousness) are examined more closely, changes are made as we go down "the path". -- Proverbs 4:18.

    What is repeated? Do you mean declaring a specific date for 'the end'? (Lol....trying to make it seem like it's a regular event!) It wasn't 1975 ; or 1925. If you were sincere, you'd check your facts before posting. But really, it just makes you look disingenuous when the truth of it is revealed.
     
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  4. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Actually it was - both of these dates were specifically mentioned in WT publications as of course was 1914...but anyway, lets not get bogged down in failed prophecies...I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to the repeated 'sifting' that you mentioned. I am sure that is frustrating for Jehovah - Isaiah 1:14; Isaiah 7:13; Jeremiah 44:22.
     
  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    But 1925 was not about the end at all. And regarding 1975, it was only stated it was understood to be reaching the culmination of 6,000 years of human history...as to what might happen, it was suggested for all to 'take a wait and see approach', nothing definite.

    Accuracy is important....that's all I was saying.
     
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  6. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No it was about the physical resurrection beginning with the return of Abraham, Moses and David etc. to earthly life, it was about building a house for these resurrected 'worthies' to live in, it was about millions (of non-believers mind you) then living "will never die", it was about the demise of Christendom and the beginning of the earthly paradise...right? So how many of these predictions came to pass in 1925? How many of the people living in 1918 when the "millions now living will never die" prediction was first made publicly are still alive? By most estimates, there are about half a million centenarians globally. OK we can excuse that one as "over-optimism" - as, indeed, the WT does. But the rest? Its all just plain wrong isn't it?

    You mean like this:

    "Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfilment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the "time of the end" Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20

    And this:

    "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."-Matt. 24:34. Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!" Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15

    Of course the youngest people this could possibly have been addressing in 1969 would presumably have been 14-year-old freshmen (yes?) so they are now 63 years old. Plenty of time to have 'fulfilled a career' wouldn't you say?

    Are these the kind of predictions you describe as "nothing definite"?

    Indeed it is.
     
    #46 siti, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @siti i don't have access to my library right now, but when I do, I'll respond to this in more detail.

    Yes, the expectation was presented as more than possible, as probable, but again, not definitively. As the '69 Awake said, "it (this System) will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

    Jesus did say to his followers to "keep alert". "Stay awake". But you don't view the Bible as relevant anymore, do you?
     
  8. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    He also (reportedly) said "beware of false prophets" and "if anyone says to you 'look! here is the Christ', or 'there!' do not believe it". And that is precisely what the WT did leading up to 1914, 1925 and 1975 - in writing. You cannot deny that. And bear in mind that the Awake's comment was suggesting that "this system" would be all but done before anyone reading it had completed a further 4 to 8 years of education. The obvious implication was that in 1969 there were less than 8 years left.

    Another thing you have to bear in mind is the force of the personalities at the helm of the WT. 1925 and Beth Sarim and all that were Rutherford's babies - he couldn't get them in with any force while Russel was still alive but the ideas were circulating already - but when he took over then it got a lot more attention in the WT. 1975 was Fred Franz's pet subject - but he played it a bit more guardedly that Rutherford had 50 years earlier. Nevertheless, it was widely held among the witnesses that 1975 would be the end and the WT played it up even though under Knorr it had been widely accepted that 1975, if it marked anything at all, was merely the ed of 6,000 since Adam's creation. There was no way of knowing how long after that the "sixth creative day" had ended. Once 1975 passed without incident, the WT simply went back to the old understanding and actually claimed that this was what they had said all along - but it certainly wasn't what they said in the late 1960s - I was young - but not stupid - I know what they were saying and I kept some of the books and magazines for thirty years after I heard this stuff from the Witnesses as both my parents and my grandmother were studying at that time.

    I don't see what difference it makes whether I think the Bible is relevant. If you believe the Bible is relevant, what it says is the important thing - not what someone else thinks about it. The so-called Faithful and Discreet Slave has had plenty of opportunity to decide what they think it means and they have got it wrong over and over again - as has the rest of the Christian religion.
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You're right. The important thing, is what the Divinely-inspired writers meant.
    The FDS class has never claimed infallibility. But no one else is taking the lead and encouraging others to follow Jesus' command to preach the "good news of the Kingdom" (Matthew 24:14), shoot, most of Christendom have no idea what God's Kingdom even is.

    The Slave class has elevated the worship of Jehovah/Yahweh/the Father of Jesus, to the position He deserves (Isaiah 2:2-4), as Jesus did (John 17:3), and have rid themselves of Christendom's God-dishonoring doctrines, like Hellfire and others....

    Oh yeah, they "got it wrong over and over", lol.

    You would've really hated to have been an Israelite during the times when they had wicked apostate leaders! Interestingly as a whole they were still God's people.

    Take care, siti.
     
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  10. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! You too.
     
  11. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
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    Could also be the definition of perseverance. :)

    I would think it frustrating to have a religious belief knowing that there were so many other similar beliefs, and there might never (almost certainly) be a time when this particular belief might achieve world-wide acceptance as the 'true faith'. :oops:

    Apart from that, I believe frustration often comes from disbelieving the factual evidence sometimes presented to one and insisting the truth be otherwise - just so one's internal account of life remains intact. :eek: :p :( :rolleyes:
     
    #51 Mock Turtle, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    So according to your evaluation...are there no "wheat" left in this world? (Matthew 13:36-43) Jesus said that both "wheat and weeds" would grow together until the "harvest time".....I see that we are nearing that time now when the "reapers" will gather the "weeds" and dispose of them....so who are the "wheat", if the rest of the "Christian religion" is also wrong?

    What is the criteria for identifying a "Christian" according to the Bible?

    They would be...."no part of the world" (its politics, immorality, bloodshed, false worship) and hated because of it. (John 15:18-21) But some would listen and respond to the message.....not the majority though. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    ...."Preaching the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as the only hope for mankind. (Matthew 24:14) Who are doing this? (Acts 5:42; 20:20; Matthew 10:11-15)

    ....Upholding God's standards in marriage, child rearing, honesty, morality and worship....as Jesus taught. (John 14:21)

    ....Getting out of "Babylon the great" because of recognizing who and what "she" is. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    ....Exhibiting love among the entire brotherhood. (John 13:34-35)

    ....Rejecting the worship of the "wild beast" and its "image". (Revelation 20:4)

    I can't see any "Christian" religion fulfilling this criteria in more ways than JW's. Its an imperfect world full of imperfect people, so expecting no mistakes is not realistic or logical. Even Jesus' own apostles, the very foundations of his Kingdom, were flawed, like you and me. It did not stop Jesus from having confidence in them.
    It didn't stop him from entrusting his message to them. Did it...?
     
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  13. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No! And look what they did with it!!
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    It all boils down to what we believe, and why we believe it.....our choices tell the Creator who we are and will determine what he will do with us as his purpose comes to its fulfillment.

    At the end, according to the Bible, there are only "sheep" and "goats"...which means that all of us will fall into one or the other of those two categories.....we determine which by how we live 'this' life.

    "Factual evidence" can sometimes be based on false perceptions....there can be misinterpretation or a convincing argument based entirely on suggestions and possibilities. People "believe" what they want to believe for a variety of reasons.

    "World-wide acceptance" has never been included in any criteria God has ever offered.....so not of interest to me.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    Who is "they"?
     
  16. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Them.
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    You are a deep thinker.....[​IMG]
     
  18. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
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    That would all be fine if the other religions were all somehow in accord with this, but I doubt they are. So, just your preference of one belief system over all others. :)
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    Basically, yes. We choose what we want to believe for our own reasons.

    There are two scriptures in the Bible that tell us why there is such diversity in what people choose as a belief system. Even Bible believers are not in agreement as "Christians" continue to squabble over details....but if God does not "draw" people to his son (John 6:44) and if we do not 'come to the Father through the son', (John 14:6) no one will ever arrive at the truth. A dozen people can come to a dozen conclusions about one passage of scripture. How do we know who is right? We don't....but God does.

    He will expose people to his message, but he will not force it on anyone, however, he has a filter.....he can see what is in a person's heart and can detect motive and intent so much better than we can. When we are exposed to the truth, we can have one of two responses...either it will immediately attract us....or it will repel us.

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 tell us why we are free to make our own choices.....apostasy in the Christian church was beginning, even while the apostles were still alive........

    "7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

    Paul explained that "lawless" men would introduce deceptive teachings into Christianity, even performing "powerful works" to gain followers, but not by the power of God. Why does God not stop this deception?
    Because those people prefer the convenient lies, to an inconvenient truth. (2 Timothy 4:3-4) They prefer the easy road rather than the 'cramped and narrow one'. (Matthew 7:13-14) He does not cause the hearts of these ones to be deceived....he just doesn't prevent it.

    You see, IMO, no one can be deluded who does not want to be. They don't love God's truth, but prefer their own....so they will never be 'drawn' by God and will remain 'deluded' because God sees no useful qualities in those people as he chooses the citizens he wants to live in his kingdom. They may claim to be "Christians" and yet they will be dismissed by Jesus as ones 'he never knew' (Matthew 7:21-23) "Never" means "not ever". Imagine!

    This to me, means that every single one of us will be judged as to who we really are from God's perspective, not just how we judge ourselves. We can fool ourselves....but we cannot fool our Creator.

    Nothing is as it seems in a world ruled by God's adversary. (1 John 5:19)

    This is what I have come to believe after many years of study. You may see things differently.
     
  20. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
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    You can quote all you like from any number of religious texts but I don't bother reading them. Just as you would likely not bother reading the evidence that might change your views. For me, it is an impossible task to sort the wheat from the chaff - and there seems to be an awful lot of the latter with regards to religion. :) :oops:
     
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