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A Fool's Proof of God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Wleeper, Jul 17, 2004.

  1. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

    Jun 29, 2004

    "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God'" (Psalms 14:1)

    One of the remarkable things about the Bible is that it continually proves itself by predicting things that later come to pass exactly as they were predicted. This is especially true when the Bible predicts the attitudes that will be expressed by people when confronted with the concept of a God and a revelation from that God. Some will choose to believe in God and the Bible and strive to live to the best of their ability according to its concepts. Some will pay lip service to the God and the concepts contained in the Bible, but live in a way that shows that they really have not taken these concepts to heart. A third category which the Bible accurately predicts is those who will hate the concepts expressed in the Bible, will claim that the whole thing is a myth and ridicule those who choose to believe it and live it.

    Before continuing this discussion it is important that we understand the biblical definition of a fool. The Biblical definition has nothing to do with mental ability but everything to do with mental attitude. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." (Proverbs 23:7)

    This article is concerned with and directed toward the later category. Never-the-less, it is an interesting irony that the actions of these foes of God and his word strengthen the faith which they seek to destroy be proving over and over the validity of the prophecies of the Bible. The believer should be grateful to these detractors for the valuable service they perform in proving the existence of God and the validity of His word. Notice what the Bible predicted thousands of years ago concerning these people and their attitudes toward God.

    Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. ( Matt. 5:11-12)

    And if the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (John 15:18-19)

    But know this, that in the last days perilous days will come; for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For this sort are those who....(are) always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (II Timothy 3:1-7)

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:18-21)

    And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation - as also our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (II Peter 3:15-16)

    In-as-much as most of my friends and associates profess a belief in the God of the Bible I had never realized just how much animosity was out there in the hearts of those who refuse to believe in God. It was only when I began posting some of my articles on "Religious Forums" on the inter-net that they made themselves manifest in their responses to my postings. These individuals lurk in the shadows of the "forums" hiding behind user names. The come out to ridicule and attack any form of morality, claiming that "we are trying to shove our beliefs down their throats." This is because they hate the idea of having to live under a moral code. The truth of the matter is that we are trying to help them find a better way of life than they are presently experiencing. Many of you already know who they are but if you don't they will make themselves manifest as soon as I post this article. That is unless, in this instances, they are ashamed to come out of the shadows.

    In closing I would point out one additional detail that warrants our consideration when comparing the believer with the unbeliever. In the case of the believer, if he is right he gains everything; if he is wrong he loses nothing. In the case of the unbeliever, if he is right he gains nothing; but if he is wrong he loses everything. Never-the-less,

    "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God'" (Psalms 53:1)
  2. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Mar 18, 2004
    Moving this to Religious Debates...
  3. Wleeper

    Wleeper Member

    Jun 29, 2004
    Where are all the skeptics tonight?
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Jul 2, 2004
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    Nice polemic. But maybe a bit one-sided even for a polemic. Looks like you put some effort into it though. Well structured.
  5. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Jul 9, 2004
    I am afraid you have been with others like you, where everyone believes, says the same words and understands what is conveyed.
    Is that what you were commanded to do? Or is coming here with love and kindness, esspousing the good news to skeptics and unbelievers, the thing commanded? No matter how many arrows you take in his name, if you bless God for the opportunity, you will not lose any reward.
    The stones thrown here are much softer than those pelting, Steven!
    Next time wear a hard hat.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Brien

    Brien Member

    Jun 18, 2004
    Hi Wleeper,

    Well, I would say this is an unwarranted assumption. Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics live under a moral code, just one that may be a little different from your own. Also I have known plenty of atheists to uphold Christian moral standards better than most Christians.

    This is a classic argument for theism known as Pascal's wager, but as I have noted in another post it is flawed on many levels:

    1. The first point is that God (of most religions) would not approve of someone who had faith on this basis. Thus, the "empty" belief would actually not benefit you at all.
    2. Pascal's wager states that believing in God only is a minor nuisance compared to suffering in hell. Many people disagree, saying it is a major nuisance. Believing in God eliminates one's independence and ability to maintain an internal locus of control.
    3. The concept of God is arbitrary. God may just as likely reward sinners.
    4. The last flaw is that there is not evidence of God's existence, therefore the odds greatly favor the non-believer.

    This seems to be the foundation of your argument but it operates under the assumption that god exists. You have not yet proven that God does exist so it seems improper to use this as your premise. You say that it is 'remarkable' that the bible predicts the various responses to god, but these are in fact the only logical possibilities. You can just as easily say that the 'remarkable' thing about the bible is that it continually safeguards itself with exceedingly vague prophecies and threats of eternal suffering.
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Mar 24, 2004

    It's not exactly difficult to predict that one will turn up their nose when presented with mythology. What are some truly astounding and telling predictions the bible has made?

    Do not confuse animosity with logical questioning.

    More like to attack theology: your morality makes no difference to me.

    As for lurking in the shadows and hiding behind usernames, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

    This is a popular misconception. If those who don't believe in god follow a faulty moral code it is no fault of their own, for often they use Christians as an example. You are concentrating on morality here, but that is irrelevent. Now that I've disproved your theory that Atheists are bad people, what is your next plan of attack?

    I would also advise that you not offer your services where they are not requested. You speak of giving me a better life, and yet I would argue that I have found much greater peace outside of religion than I ever did within.

    This is only true if what the believer believes is true. It is also highly un-genuine. If I believe in god just so that I'll 'have nothing to lose', I am only believing because I think I'll gain, and if I believe in one religion 'just to be on the safe side', I'll have to believe in the rest as well, for where would I be if the initial one I chose was wrong? No better than the Atheist.
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Mar 25, 2004
    "But know this, that in the last days perilous days will come; for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the form of godliness but denying its power."

    If that be the case, the last days should have come a long time ago shortly after the fall of Rome. The Vikings, Vandals, Mongols, Goths, Celts, and even the Romans were a lot like the folks described above.