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A few verses for all jehovah's witnesses on here that got to me

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    I officially believe the jehovah's witness religion.
    What do you make of 2 Peter 1:13-15 and Psalms 90:10-12 and John 14:2? I noticed the person in 2 Peter 1:13-15 calls his death a departure.Like he is going somewhere.Also in Psalms 90:10-12 it says WE fly away and not OUR souls fly away.Which makes the death personal and not impersonal.And last In John 14:2 jesus said he would come back for us.Is that right when we die?:confused: My dad brought these up.
     
    #1 Frank Goad, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It would help if you provided specific questions, Frank. I will try to explain as simply as I can....

    We have to understand that what is written in the NT is for the "chosen ones" or "the elect"...those with "the heavenly calling".

    "Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus." (Hebrews 3:1)

    Not all Christians have "the heavenly calling".
    The apostles were the first of those whom Jesus, as their High Priest, would resurrect to heaven.....the place he went to "prepare a place" for them. Since there are a limited number of those who will rule with him as kings and priests in his kingdom, (Revelation 7:4; Revelation 14:1-5) once that finite number were filled, then other Christians would become part of their subjects on earth, joining the pre-Christian servants of God who were never taken into that new covenant.

    "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years." (Revelation 20:6)
    These spirit anointed rulers will be resurrected "first".

    The Christian scriptures were written for, and about, those who would rule with Jesus in his kingdom. The fact that they are "kings" as well as "priests" indicates that they must have subjects, as well as sinners for whom to provide their priestly services.

    Those who go to heaven have shed their sinful flesh so they no longer require the services of priests. This kingdom arrangement will operate for 1,000 years, bringing redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with God, finally free from sin and able to enjoy life on earth the way God originally intended for it to be. (Isaiah 55:11)

    Once anointed with holy spirit to prepare them for their role in heaven, these ones have an inordinate desire to leave their sinful flesh and to be given a spiritual body in order to dwell in heaven, in the presence of God. They will then be granted immortality, which is not granted to those who will live on earth. Earth bound humans will be granted everlasting life, which is still mortal. It will depend on continued obedience to God's commands. (As it was in Eden) We were meant to live forever, so our limited lifespan feels wrong...and always has.

    This is what I believe those scriptures are indicating.
     
  3. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Active Member

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    Sorry Deeje.All of my questions in my first post are right above this sentence.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK so you have clarified...that's good.

    Peter, as one of the anointed (like all of those with "the heavenly calling) was keen to go to heaven.....anxious for this to take place. He had no idea how long it would take for his resurrection to heaven to take place.

    "Away we fly" is like time flying.....it's not an actual "flight", but considering that angels often materialized with wings, perhaps those early Christians (who had no concept of anything without wings, flying) thought that they needed to "fly" in order to get to heaven. Remember that Jesus ascended into heaven by rising up and being caught away in the clouds. They wrote as they understood things.

    The ones Jesus comes back for are his anointed....those who will rule with him in heaven. He said when he returned, he would resurrect them "first" see my previous reply.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First of all, I find the people like those found at Luke 22:28-30 have a heavenly calling.
    They have that first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6
    People like Peter would have that heavenly departure to reign with Christ in the heavens over Earth.
    There is a contrast between those called to heaven (Luke 12:32) and the majority of mankind (John 10:16)
    Remember the people who died before Jesus died are offered eternal life on Earth (physical resurrection)-John 3:13
    The expression ' fly away ' simply is to be gone away even extinct if there was No resurrection hope - Acts 24:15.
    Since at his death Adam became a ' dead soul ' or a life-less soul, then the soul is Not immortal - Acts 3:23; Gen. 3:19
     
  6. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Several well known faiths; left unnamed, get past rough spots by not telling the truth. You would be surprised at which.
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    Angels don't "materialize".

    You're making things up again. The Scripture NEVER, NOWHERE says angels "materialize"! But what it DOES say is that man's eyes are opened so that they may see angels.
    You ought to read and speak what the Scripture says rather than making up your ideas and then pretending Scripture speaks as you.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Am I?.....

    Genesis 6:1-8....
    "Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

    5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."


    The "sons of God" (angels) that followed satan into rebellion materialized human form in Noah's day.....they were so human in fact that they took women by force and produced offspring. They were gigantic, immoral bullies whose violent nature and influence on mankind forced God to bring a flood on the world of that time. The Nephilim perished in the flood, along with all the humans who became part of their world. The wicked angels dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm where God placed them under restraint.

    2 Peter 2:4-5...
    "For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; 5 and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly."

    Only Noah found favor with God who instructed him on how to save himself and his family.
    Jesus used the days of Noah to indicate world conditions again at his return...and here we are. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    Lot and his daughters escaped Sodom before its destruction, but his disobedient wife lost her life.

    Where does it say that? :shrug:
    What of the angels who visited Abraham and he made a feast for them. They ate and drank like any human would, accepting Abraham's hospitality. (Genesis 18:2-8) Two of them left to journey to Sodom in order to rescue Lot and his family (Abraham's nephew). They ate a meal prepared for them there too, (Genesis 19:1-3).....how could they be just visions? Do visions eat and drink? Do they produce children?

    You need to read your Bible a little more methinks. o_O
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    You said that angels materialize..I said that the Scripture NOWHERE says that. It NEVER speaks of angels materializing or taking on human form or anything like that.
    Now when you can show that it does say that then I will show you the many places where the Scripture DOES say that man's eyes are opened to see angels rather than them materializing.
     
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    What about "Balaam's Donkey"? It doesn't say where the Angel came from, nor how the Donkey could talk. Anything we say about it is dumb speculation.
     
  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The donkey could see the angel of the LORD but Balaam could not. Then the text says that the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam so that he could also see the angel. The angel did not materialize as the JW's falsely claim. But instead the eyes of man were opened to see the angel.
     
  12. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    The JWs and I are not on good terms. I know of a few denominations where it is permissible to lie to protect the faith and their members.

    No use splitting hairs here. The point is that we know little besides what God gives us the faith to believe. The religious documents are given to teach and that is all.
     
  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    It is not material eyes being talked about in scripture.

    The Word in the Bible unfolds from meditations of the heart, which in turn sparks the vision of the spiritual reality of what the passage is saying.

    Angels are all around us, souls that give their life in service to others, needing and wanting no recognition. Many have passed on and their actions still inspire our mind, if we so choose.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The Jw's pretend that what they teach is what the Scriptures teach. Now, in order to show that what they teach is contrary to what the Scriptures teach, I asked one of their members to show where the Scripture teaches that angels materialize by taking on human form. That member has failed (as I knew he would).

    What the Scripture DOES teach, as the example you provided shows, is that man's eyes are opened so that they may see angels. Now, if man's eyes can be opened or closed to see angels or not then there is no need for them to materialize.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I showed you where it did. That does not mean that they did so on every occasion. The three angels who visited Abraham and Lot were material beings. They ate and drank, like other humans.
    The rebel angels who invaded the world of Noah's time produced children. How "material" would you like them to be? What do you really know about the capabilities of spirit beings?

    I never said that they always materialized...only that they did on some occasions. Communication between humans and God took place in a variety of ways. You seem to think in terms of only one form. There were visions and dreams....a burning bush....the Shekina Light in the Tabernakle.....direct communication via thought projection of some sort.....and there were physical manifestations as well. Why be dogmatic about it?
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I would be interested to know why you can say this EB. You have often said you object to our beliefs.....what beliefs do you have issues with? You have never been specific. I invite you to be.

    Are you accusing us of being liars here? I would like a right of reply since you seem to be accusing us of some kind of wrongdoing.

    And JW's use those very documents (commonly referred to as the Bible) so I would like to know where you think we deviate.

    Please do not post links to JW hate sites because I will not read them. In your own words please.

    I am genuinely interested.
     
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The sons of God in Genesis 6 were human not the angels of God in heaven. It's wacko to suppose that God's holy angels in heaven could sin. The whole idea of redemption is so that man may be as the angels of God in heaven whereby they are no longer sinful flesh and blood natural man but are of the same flesh that Jesus was raised with. They die no more because they sin no more.
     
  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    We'll never figure it out.
     
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