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A Deist Hereafter

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
A likelihood and then a question.

My belief is that if there is a God and thus an afterlife, that we will sit in the undeniable light of Truth, where we can't even lie to ourselves, and judge our selves. For the evil, that will be a crushing light causing them anguish at their wasted life and the pain they caused others being exposed for all to see and with no ability to deny it. The thought of going another second that way, much less eternity, will cause them to merciful oblivion over the pain and darkness.

But I'm not putting that up for debate. The question I'm asking is about those who make it through: Will there be rank in Heaven? Would an unsung/unknown hero who sacrificed his life to say, stop WWIII, shine brighter there than a hermit who spent his whole life in quiet desperation? Is there a tally sheet or a degree to your luminosity. In print that looks pretty absurd. On the other hand the hermit rubbing elbows with the hero would mean that there's no celebrity or degree of reward, which sounds absurd as well.

This is thought experiment for which I have no answer, but I don't think it's a meaningless exercise either. We could, after thinking about it, come up with a different way of looking at ourselves in this world. After all, dispensing with the idea of hell would downplay the likes of those who invented the idea of such sadistic revenge for all eternity in the first place, as well as those who relish the thought. Those who get pleasure out of the pain of others, or animals, worry me greatly.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
My belief is that if there is a God and thus an afterlife,
Why would God's existence mean there is an afterlife?

As for the Heaven and Hell stuff, I don't really know what to think because I can't bring myself to believe anything like them exists.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Why would God's existence mean there is an afterlife?

As for the Heaven and Hell stuff, I don't really know what to think because I can't bring myself to believe anything like them exists.

You are right. They do not exist in the common Christian view and I am a Christain.
I simply did the work, learned how to read the Bible and how the Bible
makes meaning.
Any one want some back up citations to show "hell fire and damnation" is a farce, a joke, and a way to further mislead people from Christianity?
I would happily provide you some basic truths that no sensible person
could deny. Note : sensible is not so common.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Why would God's existence mean there is an afterlife?

As for the Heaven and Hell stuff, I don't really know what to think because I can't bring myself to believe anything like them exists.
I'd take it a step further and say, if God exists there shouldn't be an afterlife - otherwise death in this life is pointless
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Why would God's existence mean there is an afterlife?

Well, let's just say it would be more likely.

As for the Heaven and Hell stuff, I don't really know what to think because I can't bring myself to believe anything like them exists.

I equate Heaven, in the generic sense, with the afterlife.

You are right. They do not exist in the common Christian view and I am a Christain.
I simply did the work, learned how to read the Bible and how the Bible
makes meaning.
Any one want some back up citations to show "hell fire and damnation" is a farce, a joke, and a way to further mislead people from Christianity?
I would happily provide you some basic truths that no sensible person
could deny. Note : sensible is not so common.

Being thrown in the lake of fire in Revelation mebbe.

As one who has experienced the afterlife and been returned (nDE) I can affirm a place of life review, with no perception of hierarchy, just peace, welcome and love ...

Shalom

Did you have an out of body experience beyond the room you were in?

I'd take it a step further and say, if God exists there shouldn't be an afterlife - otherwise death in this life is pointless

Death, it's recognition, is what sets us apart from the animals. They don't know they're going to die or understand anything except that a dead animal doesn't move any more. We're self-aware and know we're going to suffer and die, and our knowledge of the ability to bring that about in others is what gave rise to our inherent morality (not the official religious versions).
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Death, it's recognition, is what sets us apart from the animals. They don't know they're going to die or understand anything except that a dead animal doesn't move any more. We're self-aware and know we're going to suffer and die, and our knowledge of the ability to bring that about in others is what gave rise to our inherent morality (not the official religious versions).

Well that's not true, elephants mourn their dead, and come back to their places of death, and will cover up the bodies.

The gorilla Koko, who was taught basic sign language, when asked 'What happens when you die?' replied that one goes to a dark warm hole to sleep.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Well that's not true, elephants mourn their dead, and come back to their places of death, and will cover up the bodies.

The gorilla Koko, who was taught basic sign language, when asked 'What happens when you die?' replied that one goes to a dark warm hole to sleep.

Yes, elephants, gorillas and a few other animals have a primitive self-awareness, but don't really comprehend that death is universal and permanent--ergo "sleep". And she always referred to herself in the third person. But as I said this is only a few higher animals, and if some do develop full self-awareness, then welcome to the club.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Yes, elephants, gorillas and a few other animals have a primitive self-awareness, but don't really comprehend that death is universal and permanent--ergo "sleep".

Most humans don't 'comprehend' this either. Reincarnation, afterlives.

And she always referred to herself in the third person.

She did? Well, that's news to me.

It may have been due to linguistic limitations.

But as I said this is only a few higher animals, and if some do develop full self-awareness, then welcome to the club.

I've often thought we should help them along.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Did you have an out of body experience beyond the room you were in?

Well yes and No... I had a massive Car Accident, lost 40% of my Brain, and was pronounced
"Brain Dead" (ie: No measurable activity) the hospital kept my body alive on life support machines
in order that they may persuade my parents to allow parts to be used for transplants to others ...
(it took them 3 days to get to the country i was injured in) they refused, desiring to keep me whole
for burial .... I awoke 12 days later (though i could hear visitors a few days before)
During the time i experienced the obe/nDE and travelled to the other life, met the Gatekeeper
(Life Review occurred) after which i was allowed to meet other up there, my Grandfather being
one of them ... Being sent back from that place of Love to struggle to recover was perhaps the
most anguish ....
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Most humans don't 'comprehend' this either. Reincarnation, afterlives.

Yes, but they apparently don't understand the permanence or universality of it.

She did? Well, that's news to me.

It may have been due to linguistic limitations.

I do remember that she kept referring to herself as Koko even though they tried to get her to understand the meaning of me and I.

I've often thought we should help them along.

I agree, but that's not the issue here.

Well yes and No... I had a massive Car Accident, lost 40% of my Brain, and was pronounced
"Brain Dead" (ie: No measurable activity) the hospital kept my body alive on life support machines
in order that they may persuade my parents to allow parts to be used for transplants to others ...
(it took them 3 days to get to the country i was injured in) they refused, desiring to keep me whole
for burial .... I awoke 12 days later (though i could hear visitors a few days before)
During the time i experienced the obe/nDE and travelled to the other life, met the Gatekeeper
(Life Review occurred) after which i was allowed to meet other up there, my Grandfather being
one of them ... Being sent back from that place of Love to struggle to recover was perhaps the
most anguish ....

Interesting. I've pretty much written off revelation and witness to miracles, but there's something different about NDE/OBE--mainly that most of the ones who claim to have been through it aren't looking for recognition or influence--the opposite of Paul and other assorted prophets of divine contact. I wish you well.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Well yes and No... I had a massive Car Accident, lost 40% of my Brain, and was pronounced
"Brain Dead" (ie: No measurable activity) the hospital kept my body alive on life support machines
in order that they may persuade my parents to allow parts to be used for transplants to others ...
(it took them 3 days to get to the country i was injured in) they refused, desiring to keep me whole
for burial .... I awoke 12 days later (though i could hear visitors a few days before)
During the time i experienced the obe/nDE and travelled to the other life, met the Gatekeeper
(Life Review occurred) after which i was allowed to meet other up there, my Grandfather being
one of them ... Being sent back from that place of Love to struggle to recover was perhaps the
most anguish ....

While I don't doubt your experience, unfortunately that does not really prove anything as your body was kept alive. Medical science has already shown where the brain continues to function even after death, up to a certain point in time. Now if you had been completely braind dead, heart stopped and no breathing at all, and then were able to describe events and conversations around you during that "time of death," I'd give it more credit.

What you might have been experiencing is neurological euphoria. Your body was in shut down mode, but your memories and subconscious were openly active. We'll never know. Regardless, hope you are doing ok.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
We'll never know. Regardless, hope you are doing ok.

Very well thank you, all things considered, although a sense of smell being returned may be an improvement to enjoy eating :) (sadly lost all my olfactory process) Balance loss i
compensate quite well using the uprights of door and window frames and corners when indoors,
and a walking stick for gravity ref when outdoors .. special prism spectacles for the diplopia ..

I work full time at the local hospital as a biomedical engineer, and have my own home and
independence ... so not bad at all for a half brained cripple :p ;)
 
A likelihood and then a question.

My belief is that if there is a God and thus an afterlife, that we will sit in the undeniable light of Truth, where we can't even lie to ourselves, and judge our selves. For the evil, that will be a crushing light causing them anguish at their wasted life and the pain they caused others being exposed for all to see and with no ability to deny it. The thought of going another second that way, much less eternity, will cause them to merciful oblivion over the pain and darkness.

But I'm not putting that up for debate. The question I'm asking is about those who make it through: Will there be rank in Heaven? Would an unsung/unknown hero who sacrificed his life to say, stop WWIII, shine brighter there than a hermit who spent his whole life in quiet desperation? Is there a tally sheet or a degree to your luminosity. In print that looks pretty absurd. On the other hand the hermit rubbing elbows with the hero would mean that there's no celebrity or degree of reward, which sounds absurd as well.

This is thought experiment for which I have no answer, but I don't think it's a meaningless exercise either. We could, after thinking about it, come up with a different way of looking at ourselves in this world. After all, dispensing with the idea of hell would downplay the likes of those who invented the idea of such sadistic revenge for all eternity in the first place, as well as those who relish the thought. Those who get pleasure out of the pain of others, or animals, worry me greatly.
Whether there is a "God" crafted world where he reigns or the case is we are all just making it up everything is self referential or everything references everything else. This is why the philosopher/psychologist Carl Jung had his theory of Archetypes, Motifs, or Themes. IMO there will be rank in heaven to the degree there is rank already existent here on earth. The thing to remember is that here on earth one mans hero is another mans enemy, one mans junk another mans treasure. Perspective is the big word I suppose. As for a tally sheet or degree to luminosity I would say yeah there is a tally sheet but there are like a million tally sheets because there are a million people/souls making them. Here though I keep in mind that this being the case you could take all those tally sheets and make an average with them which would actually mean there is a universal tally sheet in existence which is "most true"( its mathematical). As a final thought I don't think anything can be gotten rid of unfortunately. Hell can be dismissed as an idea which I am certainly for( concept doesn't completely work in modern times) but experience of a hellish condition well... Anyhow, I enjoy this thread. Good thinking, intrigues me too.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There won't be any time travel in my heaven. Because you won't be separate from anything or anyone.

When you die your meat goes back to nature. Your identity ceases to exist. Your soul rejoins God and becomes part of everything that ever was or ever will be.
It's like when a drop of spray gets flipped off the top of an ocean wave. It exists for a moment separately from the sea, but then it reconnects when it rejoins the surface.
So when you die you won't need to see these things, you will be them. You will be ancient cave dwellers, Muhammad, every creature there has ever been or ever will be. You'll also be every star, from beginning to end. Every little hydrogen atom drifting in the far reaches. Every alien being and every galaxy and every black hole. And all the incredible stuff humans will never discover while they remain trapped in their meat selves.

There is nothing fair about it, no post humus cosmic justice. The most evil people ever will be there exactly like you and I.

But it will be glorious beyond human comprehension.
Tom
(I am cutting and pasting my post from another thread)

It is not really deism. It is what I prefer to believe and I am a deist. It is a Faith based belief, ie I believe it because I prefer to live in a world where it is true:)
Tom
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
A likelihood and then a question.

My belief is that if there is a God and thus an afterlife, that we will sit in the undeniable light of Truth, where we can't even lie to ourselves, and judge our selves. For the evil, that will be a crushing light causing them anguish at their wasted life and the pain they caused others being exposed for all to see and with no ability to deny it. The thought of going another second that way, much less eternity, will cause them to merciful oblivion over the pain and darkness.

But I'm not putting that up for debate. The question I'm asking is about those who make it through: Will there be rank in Heaven? Would an unsung/unknown hero who sacrificed his life to say, stop WWIII, shine brighter there than a hermit who spent his whole life in quiet desperation? Is there a tally sheet or a degree to your luminosity. In print that looks pretty absurd. On the other hand the hermit rubbing elbows with the hero would mean that there's no celebrity or degree of reward, which sounds absurd as well.

This is thought experiment for which I have no answer, but I don't think it's a meaningless exercise either. We could, after thinking about it, come up with a different way of looking at ourselves in this world. After all, dispensing with the idea of hell would downplay the likes of those who invented the idea of such sadistic revenge for all eternity in the first place, as well as those who relish the thought. Those who get pleasure out of the pain of others, or animals, worry me greatly.
I think there is no permanent status of an individual. I believe we have a soul that reincarnates for more living experiences until it finds its Oneness with the Source.
 
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