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Featured A defense for and proof for Christianity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Well, that’s sort of why the classic 12-step program requires one to embrace her or his higher power.
     
  2. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    If the case for recovery is grounded in the as yet unreferenced statistics you cite, then why bother with medicine at all? Additionally, is the God you claim to have personal knowledge of one who intervenes in your life, and responds to prayer? (the theistic variety I referred to before). If so, and if your prayers are answered, can your relationship with this God benefit others or are you simply keeping your solipsism where it appears best served? Imagine having access to a supernatural being but not healing others. Next you'll be telling me about the moral case for God next.
     
  3. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    The Philadelphia Programme has had some successes but if one can show that this is because of, rather than despite of, a belief in a higher power then you would have valid data. First you have to have evidence that the higher power not only exists but deigns to intercede. Believing it does is not evidence it does, that is merely faith. One's higher power can be anything that one chooses. I choose literature as a higher power. I cannot attest that it works, but I can prove it exists.
     
  4. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Quakers seem like a nice group. For some reason I've always associated/compared them with the Amish or Mennonites back in the day.

    It's always a good approach to pursue and explore for yourself what fits you best in life . Do it, till you can't do it anymore.
     
  5. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Quakers are so nice that they argue for pacifism, which is the morally reprehensible position of refusing to defend oneself against totalitarianism, fascism or theocracy. Nice is overrated.
     
  6. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    No I am not. No proof for God. And there is SoS and a couple of different sober groups for Atheists and atheists for to AA today. They claim a power greater then them sometimes they claim AA as a higher power but not as a God.

    However statistics go like this. Only 5 percent of folks who attend AA for the first time get sober. But those are people who go and don't go back and don't work a regular program. For those who go to AA regularly daily the statistics go up.

    If they get a sponsor and work the 12 steps the stats go up. If they read literature and reach out to people stats go up. The more they do for sobriety the more our stats go up for sobriety. Then if we take care of our health , eat right and exercise our stats go up and then if we go to church or a religious place and practice religion our stats go way up.

    I don't know the exact stats but it does go up. If Atheists are included in that I am not sure, it may include religious Atheists such as Buddhists and Unitarians who are Atheists, but if you attend religious service your stats do go up.
     
  7. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    And again no citation for your statistics. I have already acknowledge an understanding of the claims for the success of the Philadelphia Programme. Nonetheless it is still a cult, founded in Akron based on a Christian interpretation of God. I think you need to reprise your understanding of the word atheist. Buddhism and Unitarians have beliefs in the supernatural and atheists do not, given the lack of evidence for the premise.
     
  8. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Oh no I've known personally a bunch of ATheists who claim to be UU atheists and also Buddhist Atheists they claim not to believe in the super natural. There are whole entire Atheist UU churches.
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’m not familiar with Philadelphia. However, God is whatever one makes of God, IMO. And, AFAIC, it’s not so much the ability or willingness of the intercession of a deity, so much as it is the willingness and ability of the patient to come into alignment or attunement with that which empowers them.
     
  10. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Casuistry 101.
     
  11. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    You claim to have known people who do not know what they are talking about. You appear to be in good company.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Whatever. As if there’s something wrong with that. Why are you so on about “God must be ‘proven to exist?”” Which God? Which idea of God? Yours? Mine? Whose? You must have some idea of specifically which God must be proven. AS I said, God is what we make of God. Or do you not understand how mythic avatars work? Or maybe you’re just arguing to hear your head rattle? Am I missing something?
     
  13. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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  14. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    You're missing a lot. First you privilege faith over reason, and that's too much right there. God, by any definition, is a claim, and, a large one at that. Such a claim demands evidence and there is none. So, you fail at first principles. The real life corollary is that other humans, claiming not only to know more than they can, will try to inflict their views on others. They do this without proof. To you that may be a whatever detail. To those accosted by these beliefs it is signally more important. Understanding mythology and its workings doesn't require belief in said mythologies. Ascribing credence to a particular version you find acceptable, whilst dismissing the veracity of others, is the commonplace arena for the mental gymnastics employed by all believers. All can see the flaws in the others yet, when assessing their own, they lose their critical faculties instantly. Casuistry pervades the believing community, always has. If you could evidence a deity you would be dining in Stockholm forthwith. I shall not expect a postcard any time soon. A note on Philadelphia. The point was a reference to your 12 step comment. This is known as the Philadelphia Programme. Whether you are familiar with the former capital or not is insignificant, but when you attest to things that you are clearly ignorant of, well, there is clearly something wrong with that.
     
  15. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    I want to address the claims of 40 to 50 percent success rate for Christian (or religious) programs that treat alcohol or drug addiction. I don't know what organizations you are referencing, because you did not list them. I do know that AA has steadfastly refused to publish their success rates, and has been unwilling to allow anyone to examine their success rate to figure out what it actually was.
    Various groups have tried. So nobody knows.........
    Are there other groups that have that success rate? Maybe. What groups? Can you provide the data?

    Also, I don't see how a book being printed can be called a miracle. It was printed when it was printed because the printing press was invented. Hardly a miracle, rather the ingenuity of mankind.

    Yes, Churches have done and continue to do some good things. But they have also caused much division, suffering, and death. Just think how much more could have been done if all that money had not been spent building churches and cathedrals over hundreds of years. Not to mention that money that is given to a religious organisation goes into an accounting black hole. They are not required to account for where the money goes. There is no transparency.
    How much do you think it costs to run the Vatican and fly the pope around the world so he can wave and smile? Not to just pick on the Catholics....other denominations have their issues as well.

    If there was a god and he wanted to end hunger and suffering, he wouldn't need your money to do it, and he wouldn't do it through grinning preachers in $5,000 suits flying around the world in their own jets and living in multi-million dollar homes. Or old men in silk robes with fish hats.
     
    #35 Milton Platt, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Nope you are so way off base. The Uu church itself is welcoming and accepting of all regardless of religion or lack of and some UU churches claim to have the whole church as Atheist and actually I can prove what I'm talking about.

    The Dallas UU church was started in the 1960s by all Atheists, and I actually visited an Atheist group gathering once and told them I was a member of UU and they welcomed me.

    Uh sorry to tell you this but there are pamphleys at the Dallas UU churches for the Atheist churches because Dallas UU are in partnership in part with the Atheist organizations and they use to leave pamphets and advertisements at the Garland UU.

    We have had UU pastors who gave a talk and lesson on atheism at out church. You apparently know nothing about the UU church. Its on the web sight their acceptance of Atheists, you are so way way off base.
     
  17. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    There have been a couple of Christianized men's halfway houses in Dallas that claimed 40 percent success. I don't know if its true.
     
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  18. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Here is a page from the official UU sight.
    We Are Unitarian Universalists
    We are brave, curious, and compassionate thinkers and doers. We are diverse in faith, ethnicity, history and spirituality, but aligned in our desire to make a difference for the good. We have a track record of standing on the side of love, justice, and peace.

    We have radical roots and a history as self-motivated spiritual people: we think for ourselves and recognize that life experience influences our beliefs more than anything.

    We need not think alike to love alike. We are people of many beliefs and backgrounds: people with a religious background, people with none, people who believe in a God, people who don’t, and people who let the mystery be.

    We are Unitarian Universalist and Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, atheist and agnostic, believers in God, and more.

    On the forefront of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer inclusion for more than 40 years, we are people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

    We seek to welcome you: your whole self, with all your truths and your doubts, your worries and your hopes. Join us on this extraordinary adventure of faith. Get involved!
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think you’re missing a lot. First of all, you assume much about things of which you are ignorant. And, as a purportedly Wise One once said: “When you attest to things that you are clearly ignorant of, well, there is clearly something wrong with that.”

    Now that we’ve got the pleasantries out of the way, apparently, you privilege assumption over reason where the expression of one’s faith is concerned, and that’s too much right there. Of course God is a claim — and it’s not one I claim to understand fully, but it is one about which I can speculate and reason with via any number of theological disciplines. Such a claim doesn’t require evidence, as you say, for it’s not the full revelation of God that’s important to me, and from which I benefit so much as it is the process of the search, itself. Primarily, for purposes of this argument, I never claimed that “God exists.” That’s something you’ve assumed. In fact, I don’t claim that “God exists.” That’s OK, O Best Beloved — It’s a foot many others have also shoved into their mouths concerning me.

    I don’t claim to know more than I know; that’s a further assumption you’ve made. I don’t “value faith over reason.” And, more importantly, I don’t endeavor to foist my view on others where God is concerned. I will argue biblical exegesis, and I will argue the veracity of theological constructs — those things are logical disciplines that can be (and are) known. I say that God-claims are a “whatever detail” because they really are. We don’t “know, and we can’t “know.” We can only speculate and search. As I said: “God is what we make of God.” Everyone has a different perspective and that’s OK with me. For me, that’s the nature of spirituality and it’s the nature of the spiritual metaphorical constructs — we each voice our own truth. I don’t, in fact, “dismiss the veracity of others’ [perspectives]” — I welcome them, for we’re each unique and I feel as though honest perspectives should be honored.

    As for what my own beliefs are, yes, I do have a fairly consistent set of metaphors and myths that serve me in that quest for meaning-making, but I fully understand that they are just that: metaphors and mythic constructs that make the spiritual more concrete, so I can better address them.

    Honestly, I don’t see where any of that entails “casuistry.” That term is a bit disingenuous; it’s mainly a legal term, and when we’re dealing with the spiritual aspect of humanity, we’re not dealing with the black and white paradigm of the application of law, we’re dealing with intuition and imagination. It’s as if you’re trying very hard to turn a piece of art into a science project. How does one quantify beauty? How does one provide eveidence as to whether “beauty” exists? How does one quantify the importance of the creative process, the self-expression, the emotional impact, the making of meaning that a piece of art provides? Yet, the piece of art exists, just as the mythic God-concept exists.

    And please don’t now take the tack that “the spiritual dimension is also a claim.” We each negotiate our interior life in unique ways. If spirituality isn’t your “bag,” I’m cool with that. But you need to understand that my feet are firmly on the ground of reality when it comes to theological imagination and constructs that serve to help me make meaning of my own interior life. And, as I’ve shown you the grace and respect of eschewing the spiritual dimensions of humanity, so I would ask the same of you with regard to my embrace of the same. Remember: when you attest to things you are clearly ignorant of, well, there is clearly something wrong with that. You have no idea what I do, or do not, know. You have no idea what I have and have not witnessed and experienced. You have no idea what I do for a living, or what my area of expertise is, or what my level of education in that expertise is. You have no idea what my God-concept is. You have no idea how the spiritual endeavor works for me. I do know something about putting people in touch with what empowers them; it’s real, it’s effective when it happens, it addresses the spiritual dimension of humanity, and I’ve found that it’s worthwhile in the majority of cases.

    My advice for you is that you not make an A$$ of U concerning ME, until you get to know who I am and where I stand. You’re not getting off to a stellar beginning coming off all superior with regard to your tired and ineffective “I-know-you-can’t-prove-God-exists” gambit. Whether or not “God exists” isn’t something I get my panties in a twist about. But I find it interesting that you appear to have made it such a crusade.

    Are we clear now, Skeezix?
     
  20. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    This history of UU is liberal Christianity. The UU is tax exempt. like all churches. The piece from the website you quotes states a welcome for all faiths. A large clue even for the slowest of minds. Given that atheists attend doesn't attest to anything other than their curiosity and confusion and the simple fact that UU is a cult, as are all religious affiliations. What is signally off base is the UU's claim to be Christian and the attending atheists claim that they do not accept the existence of the supernatural. Your two wrongs do not make a right. What is further off base, so much so that it is not even in the ball park, is your lack of reasoning, use of logic and understanding of the terms on which you discuss. Still, as a member of faith you have no need for truth, accuracy, dialectic rigour, logic or evidence. Faith will do. Different cult, same sham to elicit money from the credulous under the pretext of invisible friends in high places.
     
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