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Featured A defense for and proof for Christianity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I realize that many Christians here don't believe I or anyone could defend Christianity unless they are defending
    conservative Evangelical Christianity or come at it from a conservative view point.
    But sense i have been debating under the thread about Jesus resurrection and debating against the proof that Christians use that Jesus rose from the dead,I wanted to put a positive thread up.

    I do not believe in living in the past so finding a grave or old writing on papyrus about Jesus to me is silly, I don't think its necessary to physically prove Christianity is real, and I don't Christians ever will. I know Christians here
    disagree with me.

    However , the thing is that I don't need historic science to prove my faith, I am a Zen Buddhist and I don't believe there's any real proof for Buddha either.

    I just think having faith in my own higher power is proof for me. I am going to start visiting the Quakers however, and they do not convert folks at church, and they don't have a preacher, but do have a Christian sermon once a month and bible study once a month.

    They told me if its God will for someone to come to Christ they can build a relationship with their higher power God and God will lead them. I feel strongly about that if Hod wants me to be a Christian it will be between me and him and not though an alter call or joining a church. I am not against becoming Christian that way, if God leads me then that'll be.

    So here is my defense for Christians.In AA there is a lot of people who use both the church ministry and Alcoholics Anonymous to get clean.

    There are Christianized half way houses in Tx. which claim a higher rate of success then regular halfway houses, some of them claim 40 or 50 percent clean and sober rate for people staying sober for 5 years or more.That maybe the truth I am not, sure but there are a lot of folks coming from those type of halfway houses who do stay clean for a long time.

    Despite the fact that I argue not all scholars believe Jesus was real( there is a lot of historians and scholars who claim to believe in mythology),there are a lot of smart brilliant people who are Christians. I'm watching the Johnny Cash story Walk The Line right now and he and his wife were brilliant and talented and they were Christians.

    The bible being printed in the olden days m during the 15 and 1600s, was a miracle because once folks came to America and could read the bible and interpret it for themselves more people started learning to read.Unfortunately in Europe at one time the Priests who were Catholic would not let people read, everything was read and interpreted for them.

    However I believe a lot of folks learned to read and write in the 1800s and 1700s just so they could read the bible, and a lot of children learned to read, because teachers use to use the bible in teaching children to read. So the bible has been useful as a teaching tool for students in the 1800s.

    The church does a lot of good stuff, much of our help for the disaster relief for the hurricane comes from churches.Not sure what we would do without all the help that the churches give our community.

    That being said there's been a lot of good come from Christianity.I do not need an old relic from the past for proof of any religion its up to my higher power. Right now I just pray to God. But will be going to the Quakers,I look forward to seeking the voice of God.
     
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  2. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Back to the topic of the bible. I know I always claim its a scam and probably made up by Pagans.I believe that.However it doesn't mean God did not work through Pagans,does not mean the bible is no good.

    God can work through anyone including earth based folks who may have had a hand in creating parts of the bible. I do not agree with some things, especially stuff about women and sexuality in the bible,however there is a lot of good in the bible.

    I want to get back into my bible this year.
     
  3. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Of course you don't need evidence, you have faith. In fact it is worse than that, you believe despite the evidence against your faith and despite the lack of evidence to support the claims of your faith. It wouldn't be categorised as a faith if you had evidence. You've written an awful lot to merely argue against yourself.
     
  4. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    No I am not Christian you did not even read me right. I only believe in the one God. I said if I were to go back to Christianity it would be on a Universal basis similar to what Quakers believe. But right now I am not. I just said If I had an experience with my higher power where I felt like God was leading me that way I could.

    Im making a case for faith, but I'm not saying I am a Christian.If I were to become one it would not be because of physical evidence why do you need physical evidence?
     
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  5. corynski

    corynski Reality First!
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    Forget the Bible, it's all fiction. Get some books about anthropology and learn the truth about human beings. Humans have created thousands of gods and goddesses, but you'd be better off reading and learning about reality first.
     
  6. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    To have faith simply means “to trust” you might have:

    Reasonable Faith: Trust and having good reasons to trust.

    Unreasonable Faith: To trust despite having good reasons not to trust

    I trust my wife because I have good reasons to think that she loves me, I can’t prove it with 100% certainty, but it is an example of “reasonable faith”
     
  7. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I may do that.The bible is interesting though has some history in it.
     
  8. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    True I don't trust evangelical conservative Christianity. I do not believe in hell, the whole Jesus is the only way or going to hell theory will be something I won't buy into.
     
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  9. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    I didn't accuse you of being a Christian. My accusation came in the form of the statement that faith doesn't require evidence. You state you believe 'in the one God'. You don't specify whether this is a deistic God or a theistic one, and you certainly offer no evidence to support your view that this entity exists. In doing so you have simply proven my point, whilst trying to assert a mis-reading on part. It wasn't even a nice try, rather, it is typical of the casuistry used by those who assert as fact what is yet to be proven.
     
  10. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Faith in the conduct of one's wife can be adduced from evidence. Faith in a deity, particularly the theistic kind, is not predicated on any evidence whatsoever. If one has evidence, then religions, deists and theists would't need faith. One simply isn't comparing oranges with oranges in your analogy.
     
  11. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Whew no no no no no no proof, I am saying, theistic and deistic I'm not sure what that means. But I also believe in the new Age and nature, Dharma I am a Zen Buddhist. there is deity power int he earth and world around me.

    But no there is no roof for any God no one can provide proof for that, my relationship with God comes from me and my personal experience with God. That's exactly what I saying that religion does not need proof it comes from us,
    why do I need to prove anything.

    I am not trying to sell my religion to anyone its for me only, I have had super natural experiences especially with ghosts, but they are my experiences not for anyone else. This is exactly what I'm saying why i disagreed with Christians who try to prove Christianity with history and science, it does not need proof.


    A person personal experience is enough proof for the Christian religion I know plenty of folks in treatment centers who have used the church in part to get clean and sober from alcoholism and drug addiction.

    That's enough of a miracle to join the religion. Why try and prove anything?

    I don't need proof to believe in God and in Dharma I experience proof everyday so.
     
  12. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Like I said, it appears you are arguing against yourself. Hear's why one needs proof. You make extraordinary claims that are without any proof. In doing so you lose credibility and therefore why would one give credence to your claims? Again you state that there is a deity but you cannot do any more than simply ascribe natural phenomenon as evidence for supernatural intervention. Reasserting the claim does not evidence the claim. I am sure you believe your own experiences of 'the supernatural' and who am I to deny them to you? What you cannot extend from your own experience is a material reality for the claims you make and these claims cannot be falsified, making them even less believable and of no value to anyone else in the only world we have. The trope of the personal God is even less compelling given its self-serving resilience and utter immunity to proof. As for miracles I suggest you avail yourself of David Hume's view on such claims. As for not comprehending the difference between deism and theism, well, this attests to the paucity of understanding you have on these matters, and it shows. Louis Farrakhan's crackpot Nation of Islam claims to have used religion to assist addicts. I take it if you wish to grant 'healing' to the Church then you have to extend the same rationale to the Mosque? Your conundrum and not mine. A final word on proof. I hold a belief that you are not subject to gravity as other people are. You are free to ascend the highest building near you and simply step off. Do not worry, my 'supernatural and personal relationship' with my deity reassure me that you will be fine...let me know how that goes for you? Should fail to attend to the task it may be that you do have more value for evidence and less for faith than you appear to claim.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You’ve got your genres wrong. It’s not fiction. Much of it may be mythic, but there’s a difference, both in methodology and intent. There is also poetry, history, and law.
     
  14. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    Hardly. If one makes the claim for the existence of God, then you prove it. Given that there has never been a credible argument made, or proof sustained for the existence of the supernatural, one can only recourse to faith.
     
  15. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Thats where you are way way way off base, I am making no claims. My beliefs are for me and me alone. There fore it requires no proof, I keep my beliefs for me.

    I am not arguing on any side,I am not debating you that there's proof for God ,I keep it to myself and there fore it requires no proof.

    Hey dude I live in America I am free to believe whatever the hell I want to, and sense I am not arguing with you or debating you that there is a God, I submit there is no proof of God, uh no I don't owe you can explanation of what I believe no way and I am not going to offer my proof.


    My personal beliefs are business and none of your darnedy darn business.( its a made up word by me don't ask)
     
  16. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    If you kept it to yourself I wouldn't be aware of it. You really aren't very good at this are you? Personal God...whatever.
     
  17. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    I take it you are not accepting the gravity challenge! I rest my case.
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Your response didn’t address my post. “Fiction” is a particular literary genre. The biblical texts don’t meet the criteria for that genre. The veracity of God’s existence has nothing to do with that.
     
  19. Joseph Quinn

    Joseph Quinn Member

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    I haven't mentioned the Bible, or any other religious literature. Deism and theism require faith to exist whilst offering nothing more than false equivalency to justify the jig.
     
  20. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Yes thats




    Yes that's right the Atheist will always win when it comes to having proof for a higher power. But on a personal level when it comes to addiction and lifestyle I see those who believe in a God with the upper hand , and I think its easier for

    those who have a religious life to get sober and recover from addictions. So and the proof for that are in the statistics. I'm not offering up any proof but on a personal level as far as addiction goes I can say that there is proof.
     
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