A decent page on the veiws on Magic in (LaVayan) Satanism

[SabahTheLoner]

This page was written about 15 years ago from a very insightful writer who has covered interesting topics viewed from a Satanic perspective.

Satanic Ritual and Satanic Magic

Although I disagree with some claims made from the article, the overall read left me with a good impression. What would you say about it? What do you disagree with? Is this reliable for studying Satanism?

Please note that debates should take place on a separate forum if you need to do so. This is just a discussion about the content presented, and opinions can be expressed, but not debated, in this thread.

 

[Liu]

Ah, good old Vexen. That's been a while that I read through his website.
From what I remember I found much of what he writes very agreeable, just, he's a dogmatic atheist, and in such a way that I'm surprised that in this article he seems to even believe in certain forms of supernaturalism himself, or at least acknowledges it as a valid part of Satanism.

Some Satanists do believe, and practice, actual supernatural magic. Such magic is a matter of cause-and-effect and individual willpower, rather than involving any invented external aspects such as demons or spirits. In Satanism, the self is the sole source of power in all magic and ritual.

As a matter of fact, I have encountered much more Satanists and the like online who write about their experiences with demons etc. that they don't believe to be merely parts of their psyche, than those who write about their completely psychological rituals.
And the middle-form he describes here, believing in supernaturalism but not in external forces, seems not that common either.
That might be biased, both by my own interests and by physicalist satanists feeling less inclined to tell about their rituals, but, it's really rare to find the latter.

About his chaos-magick-based opinion that symbols only mean as much as they do to the practitioner, I have heard other opinions, even from chaos magicians (e.g. egregore theory, having sigils charged by random people etc.).

 

[SabahTheLoner]

From what I remember I found much of what he writes very agreeable, just, he's a dogmatic atheist, and in such a way that I'm surprised that in this article he seems to even believe in certain forms of supernaturalism himself, or at least acknowledges it as a valid part of Satanism.

As a matter of fact, I have encountered much more Satanists and the like online who write about their experiences with demons etc. that they don't believe to be merely parts of their psyche, than those who write about their completely psychological rituals.
And the middle-form he describes here, believing in supernaturalism but not in external forces, is not that common either.

The supernaturalism in the article surprised me a bit as well. From other writings I have found by reading various other writings on the internet that some atheistic Satanist do believe in a very rigid definition of a "demon" or "ghost" existing, and I don't think the claim of LaVey being an absolute supernaturalist is accurate. He probably acknowledged that magic could work, but I think he would have tried to point to science if he had to explain why it works. However I don't think he really minded anyone believing in the spiritual, despite the fact he was more or less not a spiritualist.

 

[Liu]

The supernaturalism in the article surprised me a bit as well. From other writings I have found by reading various other writings on the internet that some atheistic Satanist do believe in a very rigid definition of a "demon" or "ghost" existing, and I don't think the claim of LaVey being an absolute supernaturalist is accurate. He probably acknowledged that magic could work, but I think he would have tried to point to science if he had to explain why it works. However I don't think he really minded anyone believing in the spiritual, despite the fact he was more or less not a spiritualist.

Well, a lot of texts on supernatural magick I have read say that it's not actually supernatural but just that we don't know how it works yet. Like the quantum physics theory on that page you linked.

Therefore, when I write supernaturalism, I normally mean this not in contradiction to science, just in contradiction to the current state of science.

Actual supernaturalism, as in, it working on a plane completely unrelated to the physical one... I think chaos-gnostic Satanists would have to subscribe to that, and Setians, in a way. But besides that, I would suspect it's not very wide-spread among LHPers.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

This page was written about 15 years ago from a very insightful writer who has covered interesting topics viewed from a Satanic perspective.

Satanic Ritual and Satanic Magic

Although I disagree with some claims made from the article, the overall read left me with a good impression. What would you say about it? What do you disagree with? Is this reliable for studying Satanism?

Please note that debates should take place on a separate forum if you need to do so. This is just a discussion about the content presented, and opinions can be expressed, but not debated, in this thread.

Wow there's a blast from the past. Wonder what ever became of old 'vexen'? Most of his stuff is pretty parrot-y(that's a word now) but I did like his bit about deadites.

On topic, from a laveyan perspective ritual is a simple matter of flipping the script on conventional worship, with the object of reverence being internal rather then out there, somewhere.

Useful to an extent, but I prefer other methods.

LaVey and his ideas are a sort of 'door man' into an interesting school of thought that stretches back many thousands of years. Good luck have fun.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

But besides that, I would suspect it's not very wide-spread among LHPers.

It wouldn't surprise me since the use of science to support positions and the working of such devices are convincing to many, especially in recent years. I myself think science could be used to explain magic, psychodramatic and otherwise. Purely spiritual explanations are incomplete at the least, and are often based on faith.

 

[Mindmaster]

Wow there's a blast from the past. Wonder what ever became of old 'vexen'? Most of his stuff is pretty parrot-y(that's a word now) but I did like his bit about deadites.

On topic, from a laveyan perspective ritual is a simple matter of flipping the script on conventional worship, with the object of reverence being internal rather then out there, somewhere.

Useful to an extent, but I prefer other methods.

LaVey and his ideas are a sort of 'door man' into an interesting school of thought that stretches back many thousands of years. Good luck have fun.

In the end, these ideas are very old - like Epicurus and Lucretius old. Epicurus in particular didn't believe anything was "supernatural" and anything seeming a such was just that. I tend to agree with this line of thinking - if there is magic it is part of everything there is already, and doesn't exist independent of it. Or, another way of putting it - our "magic" is really just our reprogramming of our own local environment - the one trapped in our skulls. However, to quote Lon Milo DuQuette - "It's all in your head, you just have no idea how big your head REALLY is."

 

[Sutekh]

What would you say about it? What do you disagree with? Is this reliable for studying Satanism?

As much as I can understand the person who wrote this article based upon his own brand of Satanism, Unfortunately I can't agree with him fully on certain things. I've noticed that many people who are from the COS are very closed minded on certain things, this writer appears to be the same way. I can now understand the reason as to why the Temple of Set is more so advanced than the COS. My thoughts on the reliability may vary, as much as the writer is an adherent to the old school Satanism this article does not appear to be that realiable. The novice or neophyte must understand the concepts by grasping it fully on his own. As much as LaVey has mentored me and drove me to where I am today, The Temple of Set and other influences within the LHP have brought me to where I am currently today as well. The Neophyte musn't be closed minded but instead he should be open minded by finding other reliable literature and sources out there pertaining to this Path that this Neophyte chooses. LaVeys Satanism isn't the only Satanism that is the only reliable source. Their are many more reliable literatures pertaining to Satanism and the LHP.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

As much as I can understand the person who wrote this article based upon his own brand of Satanism, Unfortunately I can't agree with him fully on certain things. I've noticed that many people who are from the COS are very closed minded on certain things, this writer appears to be the same way. I can now understand the reason as to why the Temple of Set is more so advanced than the COS. My thoughts on the reliability may vary, as much as the writer is an adherent to the old school Satanism this article does not appear to be that realiable. The novice or neophyte must understand the concepts by grasping it fully on his own. As much as LaVey has mentored me and drove me to where I am today, The Temple of Set and other influences within the LHP have brought me to where I am currently today as well. The Neophyte musn't be closed minded but instead he should be open minded by finding other reliable literature and sources out there pertaining to this Path that this Neophyte chooses. LaVeys Satanism isn't the only Satanism that is the only reliable source. Their are many more reliable literatures pertaining to Satanism and the LHP.

Agreed, I was somewhat disappointed that the author was close-minded in his approach, and I don't have connections with the CoS mainly because they are very stiff and close-minded. I do not blame M. A. Aquino for establishing his own practice and organization in this respect. LaVeyan Satanism, although sound in philosophy, does lack strong central beliefs in magic despite the fact they have their own rituals, partially on purpose. That part is something I have been crafting using other sources.