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Featured A creator

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was wondering to those who believe there is A creator.

    To tell you honestly, I don't know what the abrahamic creator is so don't ask for "my" definitions. But I guess since everyone else knows, I'll use this as an example.

    Without scientific proof or anything like that, can you give logical reasoning the existence of a creator? (Not proof that one exists but logical reasoning to suggest one either may or does exist; the logistics that brought you to that conclusion)

    -
    For example, (and forgive me for not having a less unique and serious contextual example). There is a logical reason why some children believe santa exists even though it is not a fact. The logic is sound regardless whether it is fact or fiction.

    There are a few explanations that came to mind:

    1. The creator exists because the bible says he does
    2. The creator exists because I believe or I have faith
    3. The creator exists because I can feel him working through me (he loves me or holy spirit)
    4. The creator exists because I experience miracles in his name
    5. Among others

    What are the logical reasoning behind these statements?

    1. What does it mean "because the bible says he does"?
    "because it says so" can that be reasoned out?

    2. Having faith and belief something exists doesn't make it true. (Proof of existence aside). What is the logic or reasoning did you-as the believer-come to that made faith and belief developed god into existence?

    3. Humans have many types of feelings that overlap each other because we all have the same senses and brains and neurons (to make it simplistic). So, regardless our morals, our religion, and our interpretations, we all have religious feelings whether even if most religious say you have to practice or know X in order to experience it. Aka, We're human.

    So, what's the reasoning behind your feeling beyond "you don't have to believe what I believe to know it's true". Beyond that? What's the reasoning?

    4. Lastly, no one is challenging your experiences.
    What types of experiences and observations make good reason there is a creator?
    (Your logic from your experiences rather than the validity of them)

    For example, some see patterns in creation. Most people do regardless their worldview. So, is there something beyond these patterns that point to a creator in and of itself. It doesn't need to be proof just logic towards that conclusion.

    -
    Without scientific proof or anything like that, can you give logical reasoning the existence of a creator? (Not proof that one exists but logical reasoning to suggest one either may or does exist)

    I don't care about evidence. I just figure if there is some logic behind why people believe a creator exists, what are they and how did they come to that conclusion?
     
    #1 Unveiled Artist, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  2. Eddi

    Eddi currently engaged in spiritual warfare

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    For me: personal experience has lead me to believe in God and I also believe in many of the philosophical arguments that have been offered for his existence. I have faith in both the soundness of the philosophical arguments and in the authenticity of my own personal experience.

    So that's what's going on in my head.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Thanks for answering my question. Do you have a personal experience to share (or generalize it with the same context and intent)?

    What philosophical arguments?
     
  4. Eddi

    Eddi currently engaged in spiritual warfare

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    I was thinking of some of the arguments listed here:

    Existence of God - Wikipedia

    Especially the teleological argument, the cosmological argument, and to a lesser extent the ontological argument.

    Regarding my personal experience - I believe that certain events in my past had something to do with God, or intelligent agents of God.

    Basically, to me the world makes more sense with a God in it than it does without a God.
     
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  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I tried giving at least one clear logical reason in the thread The Miracle of Water, and
    Faith and facts, but I am not sure I got through.
    If you are interested, you can look over the points, here, here, and here.
     
  6. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    I guess there are reasons, in my mind as I think about it, why the concept of a Creator is a valid aspect.

    1) What seems to be purposeful progress instead of deterioration. When there is a need of symbiotic dependence, in some cases. Fine tuning. For me, even the body of a human being seems to complex to just have chance create it.

    I wouldn't hold to "just because the bible says he does".

    I would say that "fatih and belief developed god" but rather God developed faith and we manifest the reality of His existence.

    I really don't understand what you are asking here. Can you rephrase?

    Different experiences... one that come to mind as I lived in Venezuela. On a motorcycle going into a two lane street (very narrow two way street). I jumped the gun, so to speak, and moved forward too soon and found myself in the middle of the two lanes with the mirror of one car going in one direction matching the same height of the mirror on my handlebar, the car in the other direction with his mirror matching the same height as the other mirror on my handlebar as both cars pass me with me in the middle.

    I thought my eyes were just seeing things, but I could have sworn my handle bars went down when they passed and back up after they passed. Split second. The passings mirrors that should have connected with mine, didn't.

    Didn't know about God, so to speak, back then as I do now... now I understand it was God involved. Things like unto that.
     
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    To be honest, I think most people believe in God because they were taught to from childhood. For those early humans who invented the idea, it was simply the only possible answer to many questions, except for "I don't know." And who wants to live in a world filled with "I don't knows?"
     
  8. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hm. Thank you for answering my questions. I honestly don't mean to ask questions to sound challenging or defensive. It's just the nature of the internet. Probably tone of voice to but the intent isn't the same.

    I mostly here underlining drawing conclusions rather than reasoning. It sums of to "there 'must' be" type of thing. Unless I'm in denial, is that basically what it balls down to "the body is complex so there must be god behind it"?

    There's quite a few who do. I can't remember if you're Catholic. If you are, that's probably why ;)

    That's beautiful.

    It would have to assume god exists first. Would faith be another way to say "it must be 'because' I have faith. Kind of justifying my former statement by a leap of trust that it is true even if we can't prove it (if that be so?)?

    Oh. For example, all humans experience pleasure both physiologically and psychologically. So, to people of different religions they express their pleasure (or spirit, whichever word is appropriate) in different ways but because we are human, the result and experience are the same. Just the interpretations of them vary extremely by religion, practice, and/or faith.

    Not sure what I asked though, ha. Got to think about it.

    Oh, gosh, wow. I hope no scratches?

    Can I challenge this? (Actually, this relates to the question you asked above)

    If a person had the same experience, can they reason that it was a creator or is there something specific in this experience that may lead to that conclusion before you heard of the creator?

    Some say seeing the creator is obvious. Miraculous experiences seem to be evidence based on the person already having the belief to associate their experiences to.

    Kind of a "wow. That's it!" type of thing?

    Why the explanation of god and no other spiritual cause?
     
    #9 Unveiled Artist, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Ima read the links in a bit. Let me ask another question from this. If someone challenged your experiences and found ways to break the logic of them (say they are telling you facts not opinions), would that deter you or if they were not based on facts, would it matter?

    Some people don't mind if their experiences are based on facts or not. The experience in and of itself is better fact or fiction rather than the objective validity of them. In other words, if you painted a picture and to you it's a cat but to another it's a dog, you'd side for the cat even if your picture did not represent what you originally thought it would be.
     
  11. Eddi

    Eddi currently engaged in spiritual warfare

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    I don't know...

    Perhaps I'd either argue back or change my position to accommodate their points?

    I should imagine it would depend on how they went about doing so and what exactly they said
     
  12. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    I didn't take it as if it was challenging or defensive. You are so correct that voice vs internet makes it difficult. I hope I don't sound defensive. I am honestly trying to understand the question within your construct.

    Well... I thought it was in light of "without scientific reasoning". Without scientific reasoning, yes, it boils down to "it is too complex to just come by itself.

    Antony Flew (atheist) became a believer because of the complexity

    No... Protestant. :) I doth protest! :)

    LOL Difficult question... as to which is the hen and which is the egg.

    When a child jumps from the top of a bunk-bed... his faith that his father will catch him... did he have faith first? Or was dad's consistent statement of "jump - I will catch you" that caused him to have faith. I think God is the hen and faith is the egg.

    But I can always be wrong. :)

    :D Was there even a question :D

    Well,.. at that time I didn't attribute it to a Creator... just that my eyes were seeing things - my mind was playing tricks. I would assume that, in some cases, some would come to believe there was a Creator--maybe with something a little more dramatic in nature?

    Don't know... I can only answer in my perspective.

    Good question. Are there other spiritual causes to the miraculous... well, I'm my faith's view, yes. Since the understanding came after accepting Jesus into my life, I guess the conclusion of The Creator was my deduction. So my viewpoints are now filtered through my faith's parameters.
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    There is a creation, so that means there is a creator.

    For example, I am a creation of the 2 creators called my parents.

    So, in my view there are many, many creators.
     
  14. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    This is one of my favorite arguments because, like mathematics, I think absolute right and wrong exist

    1419566_orig.jpg

    These others also had a cause in my belief:

    Cosmological argument

    Argument from consciousness

    Argument from beauty

     
  15. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    I find that some atheists put up a version of belief in God suitable for a child of six and make that the object of their attack. Sure there are some who believe in God because of 1. through 4. But I think, not sure, that most believers have better arguments.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    When you say there is a creation, it takes away from the fact everything exists from pre-existing things. So the motion is never created but continues to form and how we would see it as "create" things when there was no creation and things and people we see aren't literally things. (That's how I'd see things).

    It sounds like a "I see this so it 'must be' that". Is that true?
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Was there reasoning behind these conclusions or were they "ah ha!" moments?
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    "Must be"?

    If we are created from pre-existing things, we are basically formed into being. Creation and creating would be a human view or label but to nature or law of physics, everything evolves.

    Do you agree?
     
    #18 Unveiled Artist, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The only athiests I know other than myself are on RF. But yes, believers make more sense in their views though I can't find the logic behind how they connect the dots. I do see the intent and emotions that drive it.
     
  20. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    It took me a while. A lot of listening to debates on both sides and reasoning on each topic. Morality, beauty, conscienceless, and existence all makes more sense to me put together with an intelligent first cause than with nothing but chance.
     
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