A creator and a singularity

[Trailblazer]

May it be that they mean the physical realm did not exist before creation, whereas heaven was always existed.

That is a distinct possibility and it sounds reasonable.... I believe that heaven has always existed and that life on earth evolved over time.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is a distinct possibility and it sounds reasonable.... I believe that heaven has always existed and that life on earth evolved over time.

I do believe we was created by Allah from the beginning, but that evolution have shown that it also work. I believe in Allah being the one putting evolution in motion

 

[Trailblazer]

I do believe we was created by Allah from the beginning, but that evolution have shown that it also work. I believe in Allah being the one putting evolution in motion

That is exactly what Baha'is believe.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Well that was the issue that I couldn't get my head around as a youth - in what did existence (in any form) actually exist - since no matter as to multi-universes and such, they still have to exist in 'something'. The creation (or invention) of any gods didn't answer the question for me, and I obviously still don't have an explanation. Which I have to live with.

 

[ChristineM]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Here is one possibility
Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

And another
Birth of the Universe from the Multiverse

And many more.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

God was everything. He didn't exist in anything, everything exists in him. " 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘ We are His offspring.’ 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.…"

Our imagination can't hold him. Imagine all you want, but your mind can't grasp what is beyond its reach. Our very minds exist only because he maintains them. It's like an ant trying to understand the universe when all he has ever seen is the anthill.

 

[PureX]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

You haven't been getting an answer because we have no answer to that question. If existence is confined to the universe, then the "singularity" is conceptually invalid. If existence extends beyond the universe then it includes, and even validates the possibility of 'God'. But in either case, we have no idea at all of what it means to exist if existence extends beyond everything we can experience or know.

So there is no answer in this, for we humans. There are only possibilities. And choice.

 

[Brian2]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Does a spirit need space?
Does a changeless being need time?

 

[firedragon]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

Do you agree or disagree that the causation of the beginning of the universe is necessary or do you think its not?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

Are existence and non-existence two separate things or they have a connection? There are theories which say creation Ex-nihilo is possible. Science clearly says that it does not know what happened prior to 'inflation'. That is known as 'event horizon'. We need more experiments to go beyond inflation. Perhaps in time to come we will know more. Is that wrong in any way? Does it mean that if we do not know something we must credit it to a God?

 

[blü 2]

if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

The problem is that, according to our present best hypothesis, the universe began from a singularity, that is, all of it existed in a point as close to infinitely small as physical will allow,

And the singularity cuts us off from any information about the physical circumstances, if any, that may have existed earlier. We simply have no access, no way of finding out.

My own thinking is that the contents of the Big Bang must have pre-existed. If instead there was a genuine absolute nothing, then it would have neither matter nor energy, neither dimensions nor qualities of any kind. It would not be an empty something, it would absolutely not exist, and there would be no place and no time at which anything could happen.

We learn more every year, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Stay tuned.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything

Would not the capacity to answer such a question negate the very essence of the preternatural? Even terms such as "exist" and "in" strike me as naive and problematic.

 

[PureX]

The problem is that, according to our present best hypothesis, the universe began from a singularity, that is, all of it existed in a point as close to infinitely small as physical will allow,

And the singularity cuts us off from any information about the physical circumstances, if any, that may have existed earlier. We simply have no access, no way of finding out.

My own thinking is that the contents of the Big Bang must have pre-existed. If instead there was a genuine absolute nothing, then it would have neither matter nor energy, neither dimensions nor qualities of any kind. It would not be an empty something, it would absolutely not exist, and there would be no place and no time at which anything could happen.

We learn more every year, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Stay tuned.

The problem is that all the tools and all the logic that can be devised on this side of that 'event horizon' are only applicable to this side of it. So that even if we were to somehow devise a mechanism that allows us to peek into the other side, we still would not have the capacity for making any sense of it beyond irrelevant speculation.

 

[blü 2]

The problem is that all the tools and all the logic that can be devised on this side of that 'event horizon' are only applicable to this side of it. So that even if we were to somehow devise a mechanism that allows us to peek into the other side, we still would not have the capacity for making any sense of it beyond irrelevant speculation.

That may be so, but it may not necessarily be so. What we need to do is peek ─ maybe one day we'll work out how.

 

[PureX]

That may be so, but it may not necessarily be so. What we need to do is peek ─ maybe one day we'll work out how.

I think it would be necessarily so; because everything we can experience or understand on this side of that horizon is 'of the order' that exists on this side of it. An order that we can see came into being as part of the 'event', itself. What is beyond or prior to this order would by definition not be of this order. And so that which is of this order would not be applicable to whatever 'else' that is.

Even discussing it causes logic and reason to breakdown and turn against itself.

 

[firedragon]

Well that was the issue that I couldn't get my head around as a youth - in what did existence (in any form) actually exist - since no matter as to multi-universes and such, they still have to exist in 'something'. The creation (or invention) of any gods didn't answer the question for me, and I obviously still don't have an explanation. Which I have to live with.

The universe, multiverse or not, logically has to have had a beginning where time and space were born. What you have said in this post about existence has to have existence is after this beginning, not prior. Prior to it, logically there cannot have been an existence of what we know as existence because causality is fundamental. Existence by nature can only be in the form of existence, and cannot be in any other form but existence itself. If the universe, or the bubble bath of universes had a beginning, it is then this so called existence came into existence. Prior to that, logically we can only assume there was nothing from what can comprehend from a naturalistic point of view.

The problem with that is if there was nothing, it cannot cause itself to suddenly be an existence because existence itself is necessary to cause something. Thus, when there was no existence, it is only logical to argue of a necessary existence which had no beginning, which makes it a "necessary existence". Thats the only logical conclusion.

As a theist, I will argue that this is a necessary being, who I call God. I dont know what you will call it.

 

[blü 2]

I think it would be necessarily so; because everything we can experience or understand on this side of that horizon is 'of the order' that exists on this side of it. An order that we can see came into being as part of the 'event', itself. What is beyond or prior to this order would by definition not be of this order.

You're more confident than I am that this must be the case. I readily accept that it might be the case.

Even discussing it causes logic and reason to breakdown and turn against itself.

Heh! Nicely put!

 

[robocop (actually)]

I've seen believers say there was nothing until a god created it, then came everything
I've seen non-believers say there was nothing until a singularity expanded, then came everything.

My question is, and I've asked in a few threads, never getting a very good answer(religious people say he just existed, non-religious people say the concept of pre doesn't calculate), if there was nothing then came everything by what ever means, what did a god or a singularity exist in before making everything come to be as what we know as the universe and all in it?

You need a God that allows the Universe to exist at all. Then you need to realize that at the start there is always creator and creation.

 

[firedragon]

Are existence and non-existence two separate things or they have a connection? There are theories which say creation Ex-nihilo is possible. Science clearly says that it does not know what happened prior to 'inflation'. That is known as 'event horizon'. We need more experiments to go beyond inflation. Perhaps in time to come we will know more. Is that wrong in any way? Does it mean that if we do not know something we must credit it to a God?

God is an inference. A necessary being is a logical assumption but not necessarily what one would conceptualise as God. And that is not a scientific argument so what science says as "I dont know" does not apply there.

Now you said above that prior to inflation was known as "event horizon". I find that a strange statement but some clarification would do.

A black hole is a region space-time. Did space-time exist prior to the beginning of the universe to have a blackhole?

 

[Aupmanyav]

God may be a logical assumption for theists but it is a very illogical assumption as far as science and atheists are concerned.
An event horizon is a state before which science does not know exactly what happened though they have various theories. After the event horizon thing are more or less understood.
As I said, whether space-time existed before 'inflation' or not is not known to science, research continues.