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A common respect of faiths

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by michel, Mar 12, 2006.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Because i believe it is false and this is a debate thread!
    Is that a hard concept for people to grasp?

    Besides what supprises me is that you seem fine and make no comment regarding Squirt's comment "that most Christians get a lot more satisfaction out of thinking about everybody else burning in Hell." Yet you get worked up when someone says that your beliefes are false.
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well, you can count me out of that generalisation. I believe we will all end up in Heaven (some of us may take longer to get there..........):D

    Unfortunately that is not happening. In this very thread, which is all about learning to respect and not to go out of our way to be hurtful, we have one member (amongst others) who is hurt.
    an example:-

    Beckysoup, Steve & squirt; I am not singling you out; but yours happen to be tthe most recent posts. Do you see what is happening ?

    What is right for me is right for me. I have no intention of telling someone else that their belief is wrong because it differs from mine.

    We all have a faith; one in which (I believe) is dear to each individual person. This is a thread about understanding the need to understand that we all have the right to think differently.

    If I may borrow a saying of Jewscout, "oy vay!":(

    Do you all truly believe that God would be happy with all this man-made angst about how we nbelieve in him ? Just stop and think.
     
  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    "Bahá'u'lláh has said, "If religion and faith are the causes of enmity and sedition, it is far better to be nonreligious, and the absence of religion would be preferable; for we desire religion to be the cause of amity and fellowship. If enmity and hatred exist, irreligion is preferable." Therefore, the removal of this dissension has been specialized in Bahá'u'lláh, for religion is the divine remedy for human antagonism and discord. But when we make the remedy the cause of the disease, it would be better to do without the remedy."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 232)
    ". . . God is the one heavenly Shepherd and all mankind are the sheep of His fold, the religion or guidance of God must be the means of love and fellowship in the world. If religion proves to be the source of hatred, enmity and contention, if it becomes the cause of warfare and strife and influences men to kill each other, its absence is preferable. For that which is productive of hatred amongst the people is rejected by God, and that which establishes fellowship is beloved and sanctioned by Him. Religion and divine teachings are like unto a remedy. A remedy must produce the condition of health. If it occasions sickness, it is wiser and better to have no remedy whatever. This is the significance of the statement that if religion becomes the cause of warfare and bloodshed, irreligion and the absence of religion are preferable among mankind."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 298)
    "Inasmuch as the blind imitations or dogmatic interpretations current among men do not coincide with the postulates of reason, and the mind and scientific investigation cannot acquiesce thereto, many souls in the human world today shun and deny religion. That is to say, imitations, when weighed in the scales of reason, will not conform to its standard and requirement. Therefore, these souls deny religion and become irreligious, whereas if the reality of the divine religions becomes manifest to them and the foundation of the heavenly teachings is revealed coinciding with facts and evident truths, reconciling with scientific knowledge and reasonable proof, all may acknowledge them, and irreligion will cease to exist. In this way all mankind may be brought to the foundation of religion, for reality is true reason and science, while all that is not conformable thereto is mere superstition."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 374)
    "Thus have the mighty verses of Thy Lord been again sent down unto thee, that thou mayest arise to remember God, the Creator of earth and heaven, in these days when all the tribes of the earth have mourned, and the foundations of the cities have trembled, and the dust of irreligion hath enwrapped all men, except such as God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, was pleased to spare."
    (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 46)
    "Indeed, as we gaze in retrospect beyond the immediate past, and survey, in however cursory a manner, the vicissitudes afflicting an increasingly tormented society, and recall the strains and stresses to which the fabric of a dying Order has been increasingly subjected, we cannot but marvel at the sharp contrast presented, on the one hand, by the accumulated evidences of the orderly unfoldment, 103 and the uninterrupted multiplication of the agencies, of an Administrative Order designed to be the harbinger of a world civilization, and, on the other, by the ominous manifestations of acute political conflict, of social unrest, of racial animosity, of class antagonism, of immorality and of irreligion, proclaiming, in no uncertain terms, the corruption and obsolescence of the institutions of a bankrupt Order."
    (Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 102)
    "As the lights of liberty flicker and go out, as the din of discord grows louder and louder every day, as the fires of fanaticism flame with increasing fierceness in the breasts of men, as the chill of irreligion creeps relentlessly over the soul of mankind, the limbs and organs that constitute the body of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh appear, in varying measure, to have become afflicted with the crippling influences that now hold in their grip the whole of the civilized world."
    (Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 5 written in 1931)
    "In many of His Tablets Bahá'u'lláh has warned that prior to the full establishment of His Cause the forces of irreligion and disbelief will spread in the world. In one instance He testifies:
    The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every
    land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever
    restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the
    vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His
    potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it?(10)
    Not only is humanity turning towards waywardness and unbelief, but it is losing the language of religion altogether."
    (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 2, p. 81)
    ". . . materialists are advancing and aggressive while
    divine forces are waning and vanishing. Irreligion has
    conquered religion. The cause of the chaotic condition
    lies in the differences among the religions, and finds its
    origin in the animosity and hatred existing between sects
    and denominations. The materialists have availed themselves
    of this dissension amongst the religions and are
    constantly attacking them, intending to uproot the tree
    of divine planting . . . If a commander is at variance with
    his army in the execution of military tactics there is no
    doubt he will be defeated by the enemy. Today the religions
    are at variance; enmity, strife and recrimination
    prevail among them; they refuse to associate, nay, rather,
    if necessary they shed each other's blood. Read history
    and record to see what dreadful events have happened in
    the name of religion ."
    (H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu'l-Baha - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 205)

    Dissension, hatred, prejudice of a religious variety has got to be the most serious sin against God that has ever existed.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    But that is not what the Bible says, it says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one, and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our goodness does not get us even close to Heaven. The Bible says only those who accept Christ's payment for our sin, as the wages of sin is death and He died, will be saved. Out of gratitude and the new Spirit within us, for we are now new creatures in Christ, we will begin to grow, not to salvation, but to greater sanctification. Our salvation is free, purchased with God's own blood, our rewards and abundance of life are something we do because of our love for God who loved us first. We may have a miserable, unfruitful, life here, and no reward in Heaven, but we WILL go to Heaven because of Jesus precious gift to us, a free gift as Romans 5 puts it 5 times. Salvation is free, rewards are not. Today is the day of salvation, the Bible says, it is a certain point in time when one accepts Christ's substitutional sacrifice for us on the cross that one is saved. John 5:24 says:

    5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    (King James Bible, John)

    Have you heard the word? Did you believe? Then you HAVE, not might have someday if you progress toward it, but you HAVE it, and SHALL NOT ever be condemned again, but you ARE, here and now passed from death to life. There is so much more in the scripture on this, we are adopted, sealed, new creatures, and it says we can know right now that we HAVE, not might have, but HAVE eternal life as a free gift because of what Christ has done. This is the true gospel, the good news!
     
  5. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    We were also commanded to be perfect, Joe.
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Joe ~ "But that is not what the Bible says, it says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one, and all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

    Baha`u'llah says: "22. O SON OF SPIRIT!
    Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."
    (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

    If we wear filthy rags, we chose the outfit. Mankind was created as the pinnacle of Creation, the very purpose for Creation. Why is that? We have in a tiny serving the kind of FREEDOM TO CHOOSE that God Himself possesses. Nothing else in all Creation has that station. And if there is a bug-eyed seven legged creature on a planet circling a star somewhere 100 light years away and has the capacity to wonder about the nature of his own creation that creature is mankind.

    Why would God create us "filthy"? Why would God create us flawed?

    By the way, do you know what "Glory of God" is in Arabic? It is "Baha`u'llah". If we are short of "Baha`u'llah" it is because we choose to be short of His call for us to be noble.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    ************************************MOD POST*****************************************

    The intent of this thread was to discuss how to bridge the gaps between faiths and to promote accord and respect for each other's views. Please stay on topic, or this thread will have to be closed. ​
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Michel, I've found that often, I can bridge disagreements in real life simply by being a human being with the people. There were some missionaries that came to my place once to convert me. My response was to buy them pizza and play Street Fighter while discussing with them. My Mother would put it this way, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegor."

    If we don't try to force someone else to agree, address them respectfully, and just have genuine human affection, then we can discuss even unpleasant things respectfully. Angellous_evangellous, once after we discussed with some Mormon missionaries (while I was still a Baptist), told me that I had the nicest way of calling someone a heretic: let them define their position, define mine, show the incompatibility, and kindly assert what we believe it means (now the Baptists would be a similar boat :biglaugh:).
     
  9. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, Michel and everyone, each religion has statements that contradict other religions. One is true and one is false. It is up to us to figure out what is true and to hold fast to that. Scott asks why God makes flawed humans, well, the Bible says at the end of creation that God called it very good, but then came the fall. Sin and thereby death came in and man is now has a sin nature passed down from Adam. THis is what the BIble teaches. IT teaches that God loves us and paid for our sins, and that only through believing that Jesus died in payment of those sins and trusting in that, man can be saved. So, we have differences, there is truth and there is false, there are false teachers, and there are true teachers. We must study to discern the truth from the false. We can still respect and love each other, it is of utmost importance that we do so, so we may work together to find the truth, and cast out the false. I believe I have found the truth, and that is in Jesus, and he said ye shall know the truth and it shall set you free, and he that is free is free indeed. I can listen and debate with others of different religions, but I feel strongly that I have found that truth and that truth is Jesus Christ. Shall I deny him? Shall I put these other new 'christs' as equal to Him? The Bible says at the name of Christ every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. THis is the truth, there is no other. Call me a narrow-minded bigot, or whatever, the truth is the truth, and I am telling you all so you may know that you have eternal life, by trusting in Christ and Christ alone, for He died, and rose again, and none other has done so.
     
  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    I'm going to start a debate topic on "Original Sin". That way we can avoid dragging this thread off-topic. So my reply will be there, okay?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No*s put it perfectly
    When you have already made a point, politely and with respect, and it has been rejected by a believer of another faith, where do you go from there?

    We know (For example) That Roman Catholics and Muslims (and that is totally at random) are going to disagree completely about the role of Jesus Christ in their respective faiths. Once the Catholic has said "Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God", and the Muslim has replied "No, he is not; he was only a prophet".............what do you then do?
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Then all that is left is to go about one's business and wait for the next discussion to arise or when things change. I'm rather bad about beating a dead horse, but it's unwise to do so.
     
  13. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    You say, "Sorry you feel that way. Maybe we can discuss this further when we meet in Heaven."
     
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  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I like that![​IMG]
     
  15. Moses the God Archetype*

    Moses the God Archetype* Active Member

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    :) Hello beloved i see your avatar indeed, are you hindu such as myself or is that just for show, i serve krsna in bhakti-yoga as the surpreme Godhead how about you?:jiggy:
     
  16. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
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    Thank you , Michel. I think that this thread already has become a microcosm of RF as a whole, however. :bonk:





    True tolerance is when one can enter an arena where your beliefs are attacked on all sides, and one still exhibits love, compassion, empathy, and understanding toward those who attack one's beliefs. When one can maintain these characteristics with gentle speech, one has truly become tolerant.






    It's the hardest thing in the world to look at your at-times "perceived" oppressor and to maintain this stance, but I truly believe that we as humans must do this in order to foster better relations with each other, regardless of belief systems. Whether we agree with each other or not, we still live on this same planet, breath the same air, eat food from the same earth, and drink the same water............we must learn to better deal with each other.





    Peace,
    Mystic
     
  17. maggie2

    maggie2 Active Member

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    Michel,

    I totally respect your efforts in this direction and support them fully. Unfortunately, there will always be some who just don't get it. However, if even one person gets it and becomes somewhat more tolerant then you've accomplished much.
     
  18. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Yes, even God gives us free choice. We must give each other free choice. We may discuss our beliefs, and all, but we must live and let live, in peace, like a scripture says, its not by might nor by power, but by my spirit says the Lord. So, while I believe in speaking forth what I believe, I do not believe in using force or 'the sword' as some religions do. Of course while I love you, and let you worship whatever or however you please, because I love you, I will try to show you what I have come to believe is THE truth, but, only if you are a willing listener, otherwise I will just love you and pray for you, and hope you love and pray for me, cuz, boy this sinful Christian needs all the help he can get, amen? Peace and Love
    Mike
     
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  19. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
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    Hello, joeboonda. :)




    After reading your last post, I can certainly see your sincerity. I can appreciate that. I'd like to suggest the shoe being put on the other foot?




    How about if, say, the "truth" in my belief system sees your belief as an egoistic grasping of a temporary afterlife? The "truth" in my belief system would then suggest that this egoistic grasping is leading to frequent suffering in your life, however big or small, and I would personally hate to see you suffer as this. Therefore, how much of this particular "truth" would you be willing to hear?




    Day in...........





    Day out.............





    Over and over again?




    Do you believe that this "truth" would be something you could truly respect and appreciate? Or would you find this "truth" coming in your direction to be insulting of your intellect and character?





    I can see that your posts are thorough and heartfelt. You rarely show any glib or sarcasm in your remarks. Because of that, I trust that these questions I have asked you won't be answered with a wave of a hand and dismissiveness (is that a word?).






    I realize I am stating the obvious here, to you and to others: perhaps the reason why your claim to know the "truth" in the middle of a debate with different-minded people - and their being turned off by it - is because it is taken as an insult.





    I hope you don't see this as a dilemma. I would like for you and for others like you to remain strong in your faith. Perhaps more people would be open to learning about Christ (and truthfully, any other religion), if the believer wasn't so dismissive of any other faith than his or her own.




    Michel, I'd like to think that I've given an example of the viewpoint you are trying to express in this thread. I want to learn more about other religions and belief systems and what "makes everyone tick." I can't learn from others when members are on the defensive, ready to discount another religion entirely while fighting tooth and nail to defend the "truth" of their own.






    Of course, I'm still a little new here. I'm no better than anyone else. My truth says we all have buddha-nature. :)






    Peace,
    Mystic
     
  20. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    I am not sure exactly what your belief is or am I implying anything that may cause disrespect to you but many who call themselves a christian are in actuality the furthest thing from one ,as a title means little in light of the truth God see's in a person's heart as it is lined up with His word .
    Remembering there is only 1 Truth that exists as far as Jesus is concerned,He is it.
    Many of the jewish leaders,false teachers and religious people got mad at Jesus for claiming to be the God in the flesh, stating ,he is the only way ,truth and life.
    It has been going on for years,Christians against christians but if we are all in the truth and there is only one truth and one spirit why is there division, disunity and a variation of doctrines amongst so called christians. Someone is wrong.

    I guess if your Jesus is a different JESUS than the the one who claimed to be the Son of God ,who came in the flesh in the likeness of sinful men and died and rose again defeating death you may very well get upset and stay that way.
    But if you or anyone does'nt believe in the Christ of the original cannonized scriptures then I won't hesitate to declare they are wrong,Christ's reputation and truth is at stake here,otherwise I would be a passive comformist to the political correctness of our society.That would make me a hypocrite.
    Many don't stand up for the truth in today's society for fear of their societal acceptance and image.
    The message of the gospel usually stirred up those who where in opposition of it even the apparent so called religious people.
    Does that mean Jesus disliked these people,no ,only their sin false doctrine and disbelief in who He claimed to be , and like Paul, Jesus was quick to point out,rebuke and disassociate himself from those who followed false doctrine,but of course you know this.
    We live in a very politically correct world and many mainstream christians or so called christains are trying to love and accept the innumerable number of people out there with religious beliefs and diverse doctrines that are in conflict to the true gospel doctrine.


    It really matters little what I or anyone believes about a false doctrine that is contrary to Christ's gospel. It will only matter what Christ's views are that count.
    We will always have a clue as to what is or is'nt false doctrine when we have the truth of God's word to compare it with .

    The question is, did Jesus come against those who believed other doctrines that where in opposition to His. Absolutely ,and he continued to plead for them to repent,He loved them, but not what lies they taught.
    This struggle in this world is not of flesh and blood ,but it is spiritual
    Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

    Why not, Jesus was always straight about the truth and was not afraid to tell others that they were false

    Interesting ,I wonder why that is, I guess I would only be able to determine why that is if I knew what it was that you believe,
    I have repect for many in this forum as there are those who are extremely knowledgable and well adverse in many topics ,polite and courteous.
    But I find if I express a rather firm stance on the truth of God's word I am not tolerated much,but I am not personally offended,it's not I they reject.
    If you are serving the true Christ you should not be offended at those who oppose you.
    And in no way is there such a thing as 2 christians following very differnt doctrines yet maintaining truth,There must only be 1 truth
    [/QUOTE]
    Jesus never fought but He sure as well refuted and rebuked false doctrine and he expects us to do the same.
     
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