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Featured A challenge to all Christians

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Harikrish, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply. I find Luke 13:6-9 and Mark 13:28 shows a lost nation, but Not all are lost.
    Since fig trees were taxed then keeping an unproductive fig tree would be useless and costly.
    So, after three (3) years if the tree did Not produce it would be cut down.
    In other words, Jesus tried for more than three (3) years to cultivate faith among that Jewish nation.
    So, after intensifying his efforts to care for that Jewish fig tree by his zealous preaching - Luke 4:43 - we find that unfaithful nation does Not repent, or refuses to repent, so that nation put itself in line for destruction, but Not all are lost because there were some people ( apostles and disciples ) who did respond to Jesus' teachings.

    As far as Mark 11:19-33; Matthew 21:19-27 that setting is later on and close to Jesus' day of death when Peter notices that cursed fig tree. Jesus causing that fig tree to wither away is an object lesson for his followers showing a connection between that withered tree and one's quality of faith. That old un-faithful Israel was like that withered fig tree being deceptive in appearance, or in other words, outwardly appearing to observe biblical regulations but proving themselves to really be without faith, and because of their lack of faith by rejecting Jesus then Jesus rejects that fruitless nations as mentioned at Matthew 23:38; Matthew 15:9.

    I'm wondering about a connection of Jeremiah 24 to Jeremiah 25:11.
     
  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Check this out.

     
  3. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    I have not introduced you to the full extent of my biblical scholarship. But here is a sampler.

    The Bible is a book on 'Alternate Facts'..

    The Jews are the only people who have been dislodged from their country twice in their history. The Jews were a tribal group surrounded by powerful neighbours like the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians. There never made any contributions to math or science and most of their past were overshadowed by their more advanced neighbours. The Bible began as a book of the larger than life Patriarchs and the invention of the Jewish people in an attempt to reconstruct Jewish history with literary embellishment slanted towards success by inventing prophets and heroes where God rewarded the people when they obeyed his commandments and punished them when they failed. But history is not written in isolation and when the Jews tried to treat the bible as a historical record, contradictions began to expose their literary overreach. Circumcision can only take a people so far and covenants are no guarantee against reality nor can it compensate for the burden of memory carried by the Jews who wished they were better than their neighbours and invented a narrative that reflected their deepest desires.
    Now that we know why the contradictions were necessary in the creation of the Jewish people we can try to piece together how these contradictions served their narrative.

    "The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is Non-Existent!"

    "The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is scarce. In fact, it is non-existent. After 200 years of Christian archaeologists digging up the whole Middle East, they haven"t found any proof of the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, Hebrew Slaves or the Ten Plagues. NONE!!! And this from a nation of people who wrote EVERYTHING down in stone!! And Sinai has no proof of any large group of people travelling through it EVER!!! The first evidence correlating to the biblical story doesn"t appear in Canaan archaeology until around 100 years before the Babylonian Captivity (around 600 BC).

    This lack of evidence includes Patriachs such as David and Solomon who are not found in records from other nations and supposedly lived relatively close to those who wrote the Bible in the Babylonian Captivity around 500 B.C.


    “The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is Non-Existent!”


    So why has the Bible a book of Alternat Facts fascinated the Western World and kept alive by 2 billion Christians when it was written to preserve the Jewish memory of their history reconstructed on Alternate Facts and, especially when the Bible did not serve the Jews well? The bible concluded in the demise of the Jewish people, their messiah was crucified by the Romans, Jerusalem destroyed along with their temple followed by 2000 years of persecution and expulsions. It also left a sliver of hope that God would someday restore the Jewish nation to its everlasting glory. But how does that comport with the Christians who see their own salvation and future buried in the same Jewish narrative? ........Harikrish.
     
  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You haven't been here long enough to know that we have discussed pretty much anything you bring up in Tanakh - multiple times.

    You should read past the first couple of paragraphs when you send us to a site. The bold paragraphs at the top are from a letter sent to them. Below it is their rebuttal. Your article says there IS evidence for King David.

    "There are two other possible indications (not yet conclusive) which mention David. Kenneth Kitchen (University of Liverpool) makes a strong case for a mention of David by pharaoh Sheshonq I in the tenth century B.C. It is in the temple of Amun at Karnak. This pharaoh is mentioned in I Kings 14:25 (Hebrew: Shishak). The exact letters are dvt. In the transliteration of words from one Semitic language to another, d and t are often used interchangeably. We have a clear example of this from the sixth century B.C. in a victory inscription of an Ethiopic ruler who is celebrating his triumphs. He quotes two of David’s Psalms (19 and 65), and the reference is unmistakably to the Biblical king David. Here too the t is used rather than the d. Granted, this is sixth century, but it shows an Ethiopic king was aware of and refers to David as a real person and two of his literary efforts.

    An additional reference comes from the Moabite Stone (which is not yet completely deciphered). It is also called the Mesha Stele, which is contemporaneous with the Tel Dan inscription (ninth century B.C.) Andre Lemaire, the eminent French paleographer, believes he has detected a reference to the House of David on the Mesha Stele."

    We also have this from Biblical Archaeology Magazine.

    "21. David, king, r. ca. 1010–970, 1 Samuel 16:13, etc. in three inscriptions. Most notable is the victory stele in Aramaic known as the “house of David” inscription, discovered at Tel Dan; Avraham Biran and Joseph Naveh, “An Aramaic Stele from Tel Dan,” IEJ 43 (1993), pp. 81–98, and idem, “The Tel Dan Inscription: A New Fragment,” IEJ 45 (1995), pp. 1–18. An ancient Aramaic word pattern in line 9 designates David as the founder of the dynasty of Judah in the phrase “house of David” (2 Sam 2:11 and 5:5; Gary A. Rendsburg, “On the Writing ביתדיד [BYTDWD] in the Aramaic Inscription from Tel Dan,” IEJ 45 [1995], pp. 22–25; Raging Torrent, p. 20, under “Ba’asha . . .”; IBP, pp. 110–132, 265–77; “Sixteen,” pp. 41–43)....In the second inscription, the Mesha Inscription, the phrase “house of David” appears in Moabite in line 31 with the same meaning: that he is the founder of the dynasty..."

    Wow, you really need to reread Tanakh. You have come up with some of the same errors that Christians have.

    THE MESSIAH of the Jews has not come yet. The messiah/anointed one whom was killed in the text, was one of thousands of anointed people at that time = Priests, Kings, Judges, etc.

    Watch the video in # 122. He tells you whom that particular messiah/anointed one was.

    The second half is particularly interesting.

    Obviously the Jewish people are still around.

    *
     
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  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I like to ask you have you, yourself listen to this video.that you posted.

    I listened to it, But found the guy contradicting Himself many times.

    He start's with Daniel Chapter 9 Verse 1, in saying that Daniel was confused by not understanding what Jeremiah the prophet had written.

    In listing to him and followed along with him, I open my Tenakh and my Christian bible up, but found him to be contradicting himself.
    In Daniel Chapter 9 Verse 2, You will find Daniel saying = "In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by the books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet.
    Here we find Daniel saying that he understood, but the guy in video saying, that Daniel did not understand?
    Then he said that Daniel was afraid of the Angel Gabriel, but no where does Daniel give this indication of being afraid of the Angel Gabriel.

    That I found Daniel the Prophet saying quite the opposite of the guy in the video is saying.
    But then I realized he doesn't have the Tenakh there with him, just him speaking and no else has the Tenakh there also.

    How can a person teach something and not have there what their teaching from, nor the people have Tenakh there with them to follow along.

    So it comes down to, him saying things and have nothing there to support what he's talking about. Nor do the people there to see if he is saying things that are actually from the Tenakh it's self.

    If I go to a Christian Church that's giving a seminar on things that are to be from the bible, I always make sure that I have my Christian bible there with me to follow along with.

    But here in this video, I find this guy saying things that neither the Tenakh nor the Christian bible Support's. In what he's talking about.
    Maybe you need to listen to a video before you post it, to make sure the person speaking is not contradicting themselves.

    When I find such a person doing such things it's a turn off for me. That people will follow along not knowing of they are being told exactly what their bible is saying. Are just taking someone's word for granted.
    Therefore he's the scholar and should know that if he's going to teach a class, at lease have there with him what he's going to teach from there with him, As well all the students should also have also.to be able to follow along.
     
    #125 Faithofchristian, Nov 24, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  6. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    I agree I haven't spent much time here and would appreciate any links to material that will advance my biblical scholarship.
    I also apologize for the link I used: The archeological evidence for the Bible is non-existent. I use to use Israel Finkelsteins article: Archeology demolishes the bible. But that link became a pay to read site and no longer in the public domain.

    Here is what Israel Finkelstein wrote which he has incorporated in his book. The bible unearthed.

    "I don't think they thought much of it. The Jews were a divided tribal group and much as they celebrate their partiachs. The so called kingdom of David was just a small tribal kingdom.

    "Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did not come a-tumbling down. How archaeologists are shaking Israel to its biblical foundations.

    Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, with archaeology historian Neil Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text."

    "The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom."

    Jerusalem was essentially a cow town, not the glorious capital of an empire. These findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades.

    The tales of the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Joseph among others -- were the first to go when biblical scholars found those passages rife with anachronisms and other inconsistencies. The story of Exodus, one of the most powerful epics of enslavement, courage and liberation in human history, also slipped from history to legend when archaeologists could no longer ignore the lack of corroborating contemporary Egyptian accounts and the absence of evidence of large encampments in the Sinai Peninsula ("the wilderness" where Moses brought the Israelites after leading them through the parted Red Sea).

    Finkelstein is an iconoclast. He established his reputation in part by developing a theory about the settlement patterns of the nomadic shepherd tribes who would eventually become the Israelites, bolstering the growing consensus that they were originally indistinguishable from the rest of their neighbors, the Canaanites. This overturns a key element in the Bible: The Old Testament depicts the Israelites as superior outsiders -- descended from Abraham, a Mesopotamian immigrant -- entitled by divine order to invade Canaan and exterminate its unworthy, idolatrous inhabitants.

    The famous battle of Jericho, with which the Israelites supposedly launched this campaign of conquest after wandering for decades in the desert, has been likewise debunked: The city of Jericho didn't exist at that time and had no walls to come tumbling down. These assertions are all pretty much accepted by mainstream archaeologists."

    Marcus says that Finkelstein is "difficult to dismiss because he's so much an insider in terms of his credentials and background. He's an archaeologist, not a theologian, and he is an Israeli. It's hard to say that someone who was born in Israel and intends to live the rest of his life there is anti-Israeli."

    Thank you for correcting my poor choice of a link that was only a response.
     
  7. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    WOW - you need to reread the text from Tanakh, and re-listen to the video.

    In Daniel 9:1-2 he only gives a vague summery of the Kings dream = You are great - other kingdoms will rise and fall.

    Daniel is brought in over-and-over - over TIME - to give interpretations.

    And that is absolute BULL, as I have read both.

    Also - you are quite capable of going to a JEWISH site to find their reading of Daniel. Or go to You tube and put in Daniel, and chose the Jewish, not the Christian. You imply that this Rabbi is just out there - which is pure bull - and can be shown by bringing up the other Jewish videos on Daniel.

    Plus you say absolutely nothing about his proving the week-years do NOT go to Jesus, but are talking about the 70 year captivity and the time to the second Temple.

    I suggest you listen again. He also has a second much longer video on the same subject, if you wish things to be broken down further for you.

    If you don't want to listen to the whole thing listen CAREFULLY to minutes 4 through 20, - at the end of those minutes he tell us why it can't be Jesus.

    *
     
  8. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Archaeology doesn't demolish the Bible. I studied archaeology. Perhaps your local library has copies of Biblical Archaeology magazine that you could read. We have evidence for many of the people and places mentioned. The problem is that it is an aggrandized history - with - myth and religious ideas thrown in. If they win = God is great. If they lose = God is angry with them.

    For instance - Obviously the Adam and chavvâh/Eve story isn't true according to known science, however, it doesn't need to be if the original listeners understood the teaching. Do Adam and Eve represent the first time a people actually accept a ONE God idea?

    Indeed , in fact they were most likely nomadic herding Canaanites, whom attacked the settled Canaanite cities, or just incorporated into most of them, and triumphed with their ONE God idea. According to Tanakh with multiple genocide attacks on their own people - originally Pagan, - to make it stick.

    We have discussed this many times. But first - the idea that the Israelites were never in Egypt - is countered by archaeology. We have Temple walls with depictions of the Hebrew with other slaves. We know they are Hebrew because they wear the Hebrew tsitsit - which are ritual knotted fringes. We also have ancient Historians telling us the Hebrew were originally from India and settled first in Egypt before moving to their known lands. So the Exodus story could, again, be an aggrandized story of what was a smaller group leaving Egypt during a time of upheaval, famine, flies, frogs, death, etc., all normal events.

    Now the Exodus story itself is not likely as we would have numerous evidence left behind by the huge a group moving around a small desert. As well as the fact that this desert had caravan outposts and the caravans that trekked between them. They would have had places to go, and a group that huge would have been seen, and reported to other kingdoms as a possible threat.

    Indeed, we know this. All ancient cities start as "cow" towns. Tanakh tells us it started with a tent.

    Interestingly it is called Urusalima on Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets, and probably named after a Canaanite deity, "City of Shalem"

    Indeed - see above. They most likely are a nomadic herding Canaanite mix.

    Already covered - aggrandized history, - which ALL cultures are guilty of.

    *
     
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  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about the 70 weeks of Daniel Chapter 9.

    Let me say again,
    Where as this guy in your video speaking of Daniel Chapter 9:1, said that Daniel was confused and did not understand what Jeremiah the prophet had written.
    But then in Daniel 9 Verse 2, We can find Daniel saying that he understood the books of Jeremiah the prophet.

    So what we have here is, This guy in the video saying that Daniel was confused and did not understand.

    Then we have Daniel the prophet saying he did understand what Jeremiah had written
    Daniel 9:2 and in the Tanakh Daniel 9:2 saying the same thing, That Daniel did understand Jeremiah the prophet.

    Then he continued to say, that Daniel was afraid of the Angel Gabriel.
    But there is no where Written in the book of Daniel to give a indication that Daniel as being afraid of Angel Gabriel.
     
    #129 Faithofchristian, Nov 25, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is blasphemy. In my opinion God lies to evil doers in order to punish them. Otherwise He tells the truth.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I must not have original sin because I am not of the Adamic race of humans but of the Caucasian race.

    I believe somehow it seems that sin managed to find a way into my race as well because those tendencies are there. I think some of come from a previous life as a barbarian. After all the heritage is a gift but the spirit isn't tied to it.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it isn't the death of the body that comes immediately but certainly death enters the spirit because the wages of sin is death. However once one no longer has eternal life the body is inexorably headed to death.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If I may say, That of Romans 6:23 is two folded. It can be taken as a literal death of a person.
    But it can be taken in pointing to someone also.

    "For the wages of sin is _______ ?
     
  14. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Have links to said images?

    I mean, I know Egypt occasionally mentioned Israel in some form or another, but that's a far cry from the bible being true.

    Also, "Egypt" shouldn't just be considered in its modern form, in terms of boundaries. For example, this is Egypt in 500 BCE. Note that "Israel" is "Egypt" too.

    It's like if you went back in time, you could flee to Mexico just by going to Texas or Arizona. You could flee to Louisiana by basically going anywhere west of the MS River, at least when Napoleon was in charge.

    Link?

    Plus, Google Maps shows that without a doubt, it would only have taken less than a couple of weeks to walk there, not even A year, much less FORTY.

    Saying one understands and understanding are two different things. What matters is what is actually being understood.

    But even the righteous die.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    What is actually being understood, Is Daniel actually understood the books of Jeremiah.

    As for the righteous they do not die, There are two aspects for the righteous.
    One being their body of flesh die's.
    The spirit of the righteous does not die.

    Therefore know the difference between the carnal body which die's and the life of the Spirit which can not die.
     
  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I shouldn't have used 2 Peter 3:8-9; it doesn't apply. I was wrong to support it that way. Ephesians 2:1, a spiritual death, is what happened immediately. Being perfect, there really was no acceptable reason for Adam's rebellion. (Although Satan approached Eve, deceived her, and then used her -- his cherished companion - to get Adam to rebel, Adam shouldn't have let Eve influence him to that degree, going against God's law.)
    Spiritual death always leads to literal death. It's inevitable. By pulling away from God, their Source of life, they were eventually going to slow down and die. Like a plugged- in fan pulled out of the socket.

    I noticed you addressed 2 Peter 3:8-9 I mentioned -- and rightly so -- but you didn't address the other points.

    Newton 'studied the Bible daily'; the words he read are the same ones we have today, yet he appreciated it's truth, and recognized a loving God, described within it's pages.
    Boyle, Keppler and others, the same. You feel you've uncovered some hidden truth they missed?
     
  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I was lazy. :) Got this from Google, I'll search for the ones I saved tomorrow.

    [​IMG]

    From the tomb of Seti 1.

    "The tribe of Ioud or the Brahmin Abraham, left the Maturea of the kingdom of Oude in India and, settling in Goshen, or the house of the Sun or Heliopolis in Egypt, gave it the name of the place which they had left in India, Maturea." (Anacalypsis; Vol. I, p. 405.)

    "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), (Book I:22.)

    *
     
    #137 Ingledsva, Nov 26, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Yet you ignore the reality that "die" in the original is plural and not singulare... therefore, since at this point you appear to ignore that truth, your objectivity seems to be in question.
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    They were already like God for He created them in His image an in His likeness. Improper exegesis.

    No physical death (until later). Sin entered and there was a spiritual death (separation from God). Improper exegesis

    No... Eve was deceived, Adam willfully disobeyed.

    [/QUOTE]
    6. Just as the serpent has told Eve, their eyes were opened and they felt inappropriately naked. It dawned on them that they were not alone. God was also seeing their naked bodies. As a couple it was not right that a third person could also see their nakedness. Modesty overcame them.
    [/QUOTE]
    Personal opinion and improper exegesis. God sees everything.
    God didn't "suspect" - He knew.

    Improper exegesis. He cursed the ground (which his body was made of). For Adam's spirit/soul - He offered a Messiah.

    Improper exegesis. He didn't take away salvation... He prevented them from living forever in sin until Jesus came to take away the sin.

    I am tempted to put on my pshychologist hat and analyse your state of mind... but I will desist.

    Happy to correct your personal opinions scriptually :D
     
    #139 KenS, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  20. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Man was created in God's image. Image as in appearance only, because it was only after they ate from the tree of knowledge were their eyes opened and they became like God knowing good and evil.
    God confirms that when he tells his angels now that they have become like us knowing good and evil, let us not allow them to reach and also eat from the tree of life and live forever.

    No spiritual life was offered in Genesis only physical life. Therefore no spiritual death could have occurred. There is no mention of anyone dying from spiritual death in the bible.

    The serpent told Eve she would certainly not die from eating the fruit, that God knew her eyes would be opened and she would become like God knowing good send evil.
    God confirmed what the serpent shared with Eve now that their eyes were opened they became like God.
    When Adam saw Eve was still alive after eating the fruit, he took some and ate it too.
    6. Just as the serpent has told Eve, their eyes were opened and they felt inappropriately naked. It dawned on them that they were not alone. God was also seeing their naked bodies. As a couple it was not right that a third person could also see their nakedness. Modesty overcame them.

    Scriptures prove God was not all that omni???. God did not know where they were hiding and who told them they were naked. Did they eat from the forbidden tree? He didn't even know there was a crafty talking serpent in the garden.

    Genesis 3:Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
    10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
    11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"


    The same ground that produced abundance of vegetation, animals, birds and fish. Sounds like a big move up from a restricted garden.

    No messiah. God raped Mary to produce Jesus. Luke 3:23
    Jesus was crucified by the Romans. Jesus lamented on the cross:" My God, my God why have you forsaken me?

    Jesus said I go to my father's house to prepare rooms for guests. He is a housekeeper in heaven.

    They lived for over 900 years longer than any human. The fruit actually prolonged their sinful life.
    I am tempted to put on my psychologist hat and analyse your state of mind... but I will desist.


    Just your opinions which are easily rebutted by scriptures.
     
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