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Featured A challenge to all Christians

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Harikrish, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Gen 3:22-23 is after sin so it isn't applicable.

    It is more consistent that God created man for eternity.
     
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  2. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't say the light was the life of man. It says when man walks in the light (truth) he has fellowship with God.
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But if you read the Garden story in Genesis carefully, you'll find no mention of sin, original sin, disobedience, the fall of man, the need for a redeemer, death entering the world ─ the story isn't about any of those things. They're all later add-ons, with no support in the text.

    Bear in mind that at the time Eve and Adam respectively ate the fruit, each was incapable of forming any sinful intention, since God had deliberately kept them ignorant of good and evil.
     
  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    In reading it carefully (Gen 1-3), I do find that Adam was disobedient, I see the the promise of a redeemer, the exposing of man's first sin and his fall from his position and death entering into the world (not using man's definition of death)

    When I tell my son, "DON'T play with fire or you wil get burnt", they fact that I told him don't do it (even if he has never experienced the pain of fire) makes sin a possibility. In that I told him, he is not ignorant of good and evil. Likewise Adam and Eve were not ignorant of good and evil, they just never had experienced the pain of playing with fire until they disobeyed.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry, the correct statement is 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't know how you can see something that simply isn't present in the text.
    But your son, I take it, has not been expressly forbidden access to knowledge of good and evil, which is precisely the condition of Adam and Eve at their respective relevant times.

    So it seems odd to me, an ordinarily literate onlooker, that you can turn the story into something it self-evidently isn't.

    However, the US Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, so perhaps what the text says comes second to that.
     
  7. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    According to genesis 2:16 God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when he ate it he would die.

    The talking serpent corrects Eve understanding about the poisonous tree of knowledge.
    Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?"

    2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

    4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    Eve's dilemma. Who spoke the truth God or the serpent?

    1. Eat the fobidden fruit and you will die according to God to Adam.
    2. Eat from it and their eyes will be opened and they will be like God knowing good and evil according to the serpent to,Eve.

    Eve ate the forbidden fruit and gave some to Adam.
    1. The first thing they noticed was their eyes were opened exactly as the serpent told Eve.
    Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    2. They did not die after eating the forbidden fruit. God saw they were alive . So God was lying.
    Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
    10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
    11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

    3. God confirms in scriptures he was lying because he offers the same explanation as the serpent offered to Eve which was:" Eat from it and your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil."

    Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

    Genesis 2:17 KJV 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    The newer translations corrected the grammatical mistake. The word used is surely and certainly. No plurality in function.

    There isn't any mention in the bible of anyone dying a spiritual death. The word spiritual death in never used in the bible.

    Death is universal. The only death that can be scientifically authenticated is physical death.

    In death the body is separated from the spirit. The spirit does not die but continues to live on. There is no word 'spiritual death' in the bible nor is there an example of someone dying a spiritual death (before the body dies). A man can be saved as long as he is still alive and willing to accept salvation.

    Why do the believers who died need to be resurrected if they were all spiritually alive?

    Scriptures prove Adam and Eve were never separated from God.

    God remained in contact with Adam and Eve and even their children. Their union was never broken.
    Adam and Eve continued to worship and thank the lord for their children. They even taught theur children to make offerings to a God. And God continued to communicate with Adam and Eve and their family.

    Genesis 4:1 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering"fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
    1. The serpent outsmarted God, Adam and Eve. All three were Not very smart
    2. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil. They were dumber than the tree of knowledge.
    3. The bible tells us Adam named a few animals. He could have called them anything. It also excluded many animals and sea animals.
    They were made in the image which is only in outward appearence.
    You are scripturally ignorant. They were created dumb and naked and God hoped to keep them that way. That is why he told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Read your scriptures.

    Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

    Genesis 2:17 KJV 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    The scriptures prove it was God who was caught lying. God tried to take additional steps to kill Adam and Eve after he found out they did not die from eating the forbidden fruit. He denied them access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to life forever.
    Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    They hid from God because they were afraid they were naked and did not want him to look at their naked bodies. They realized they were a couple (man and woman) and God was the odd man out there.
    Genesis 3:10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
    We learn from scriptures God did desire women and impregnated Mary to produce Jesus. The scriptures also tell us Adam and Eve only hid from God but not from each other.
    Christians believe trees are sentient and like humans they also suffer death. That is why Christians worship the wooden cross because a tree died to make the wooden cross to nail Jesus too. Jesus was resurrected but the tree remained dead. The wooden cross was the true sacrifice not Jesus, which is why it is found on churches all around the world.
     
  8. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    I am a biblical scholar and a proper reading and understanding of scriptures is in my purview and area of expertise. The bible is the only authority that can hold God accountable for his actions because it is the word of God. And anything that He said can and will be used against him. It's called Miranda right.
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Apparently not... it seems more like what you have been saying is "I have a perspective and now I will view scriptures within my perspective.

    In other words, you have a strainer of beliefs, you pour the word of God into the strainer, use the word of God that strains through that supports your beliefs.

    The proper way is to make the strainer the Word of God, put your beliefs into the strainer, keep the part that goes through the strainer and throw out the beliefs that remain in the strainer.
     
  10. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    A link between the serpent of Genesis 3 and Satan, or the devil, is given in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2: they are one and the same.


    Rev 12:9 'And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world’

    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;


    Satan is God primary challenger. In Genesis Satan was disguised as a serpent.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Defitely not the serpent and, defintiely not Eve. Look at the trap.

    TEST: "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?" Obvious answer... no. Then why ask?

    ANSWER:m2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

    FALSE: God never said you cannot touch it. Her error is what the Serpent will manipulate. So she touches it and nothing happens. Her first premise was wrong but she believes it was right. Now, if she thinks that God just lied, then the rest falls into place

    TEST: Doubt, jealousy and covetousness, sin. 1) Doubt: You aren't like God when in reality they were already made in His image and in His likeness, 2) Jelousy: God hasn't given us everything 3) covetousness, I want what should remain in God's posession and so she sins.

    The results are evident by what happened after. All the fruit of the effects of a spiritual death (spiritual separation). Only the blood covenant that God made with Adam and Eve kept life flowing until the Messiah came where man becomes spiritually alive again (united with God) through being born again.
     
  12. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    The proper word would be objectivity. Biblical scholars take an objective approach to studying scriptures which like science we have a developed methodology.

    The tools we use are textual criticism, historicity, archeological discoveries and professional integrity.

    There is very little to throw out in scriptures because all the pieces are needed to develop the big picture.

    I am also a student of the behavioural sciences and a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian theology and Islamic fundamentalism.

    So you can see I have very complementary disciplines to enhance our understanding of scriptures.
     
  13. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    1. This shows how thorough the serpent was in questioning Eve by starting at the beginning without any assumptions.
    2. God warned Adam not Eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So her recollection went slightly off. But not that far from the main point which was in/on the day you eat the forbidden fruit you will die.
    3. The serpent gave the real reason God does not want them to eat from the tree of knowledge because they would become like God knowing good and evil.
    4. Eve eats the fruit...no death follows. She gives some to Adam.
    5. Adam sees Eve is still alive after eating the fruit so he is reassured by Eve and eats some too.
    6. Just as the serpent has told Eve, their eyes were opened and they felt inappropriately naked. It dawned on them that they were not alone. God was also seeing their naked bodies. As a couple it was not right that a third person could also see their nakedness. Modesty overcame them.
    7. God sees the changes and suspects they ate the forbidden fruit.
    8. But God's reason for trying to prevent them from eating from the tree of life is the same as what the serpent told Eve. They would not die but become like God knowing good and evil. So his warning was a lie. God knew they would not die.
    9 Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said: The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree if life and eat and live forever.

    It is ironic that God would curse Adam and Eve for learning what was good and evil and banish them from the garden to deny them access to the tree of life which would allow them to live forever. When the rest of the bible is about God sending prophets to teach Adam and Eve's descendants what is good and evil and, finally send his only begotten son Jesus to die so he could offer them salvation and eternal life, which he himself took away from them when he denied Adam and Eve access to the tree of life. I am tempted to put on my psychologist hat and analyze God's state of mind. But I will desist.

    Other examples in scriptures where God changes his mind with regrets after he make the mistake.
    Genesis 6:7 So the Lord said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground"for I regret that I have made them."

    Then changes his mind with regrets.
    Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

    God is not done yet. He is going to destroy heaven and earth and start all over.
    Revelation 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

    Thank you for your participation....Harikrish.
     
  14. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Obviously you haven't read my posts about the God of the Bible, not actually being a God, as proven by the horrific actions he supposedly has done, or said is OK to do, which are in reality, the things Bronze Age MEN wanted to do.

    Destroying huge groups of people - men - women - babies, etc.

    Murdering infants for an adults crime, - King David's baby.

    Sanctioning murdering wives and children for a man's crimes.

    Allowing ownership of multiple women.

    Allowing true slave ownership. Could be bred and kept FOREVER.

    Allowing rape of captives.

    Allowing sex slaves - concubines, etc.

    And the list goes on and on and on. The Bible is the writings of MEN, - not a God.

    *
     
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    LOL! Later writing by a new religion do NOT prove a link between serpent and Satan.

    They have shown they do not understand Tanakh by total mistranslation of Tanakh texts - such as Lucifer - where it does not actually say Lucifer, or virgin births - where it does not actually say virgin births, etc. They think a verse about King David - is about Jesus. You know - the one they translate The Lord said onto my Lord... which is actually - YHVH said onto my Lord (King David)....

    EDIT - Also - You said you are a scholar of this. If so, then you should have known that in Tanakh Satan is a servant of YHVH, - not the later evil autonomous being they turned him into.

    *
     
    #115 Ingledsva, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  16. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    That is fine and there is evidence in the Bible that God allowed all that. But it is the God of the Bible that Christians have made a religion out of and scriptures is how they defend their God and beliefs and to justify their actions against those who disagree.
     
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  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    They twisted a lot of Tanakh verses in an attempt to make Jesus the awaited Hebrew Messiah.

    They came up with a trinity, - when the Hebrew is ONE God, - no trinity.

    Jesus as a Jew - would have taught Tanakh, and ONE God.

    *
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I can agree because there is a comparison between the genuine 'wheat' Christians and the fake 'weed/tares' Christians. There is a comparison about the behavior between the neighboly good Samaritan and the other two.
    There is a comparison between the two debtors. Behavior comparison with the prodigal son. Jesus separated the fit from the unfit in the dragnet illustrative parable. In the pearl of high value that figurative pearl was compared to being willing to part with what was necessary to possess that kingdom pearl. In the hidden treasure story the subject is also about God's kingdom and showing that requirements or adjustment changes are necessary in one's life.
    Any thoughts about the parable found at Luke 13:6-9 about the unproductive fig tree.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find No twisting about Daniel 9:24-26.
    Christians did Not come up with a trinity concept but rather false ' weed/tares' so-called Christians did.
    Jesus forewarns us that MANY would come 'in his name' and be proving false at Matthew 7:21-23.
    Jesus taught he is Son of God and Not God at John 10:36.
    Even the devils believed knowing that Jesus is the Son of God at Luke 4:41.
    The resurrected heavenly Jesus still believes he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The fig tree found at Luke 13:6-9, This fig tree repsents Israel, If you study out about the fig tree, you will find there are two fig trees.
    If you notice Christ Jesus speaking, saying, in the book of Mark 13:28 --"Now learn a Parable of the fig tree.
    The best place to start to learn of the parable of the fig tree, Go back and start with Adam and Eve, Then follow it throughout the old testament, You will find one fig tree repsents the good fig tree of Israel and the other fig tree repsents the bad fig tree of Israel.
    You see not all of Israel are the true Israel. That's why Christ Jesus said "Now learn a parable of the fig tree.
    There were alot of intermarriages in Israel, being that over the years Israel intermarried with other people. But not all of Israel did this.
    That's why you have the bad fig tree and the good fig tree.
    The good fig tree Represents the pure Israel.
    The bad fig tree Represents those of Israel who intermarried with other people around them.

    This is why Paul written in the book of Romans 9:6 --"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, Which are of Israel"

    One the good fig tree, one the bad fig tree.
    The pure Israel,. And bad fig tree those of Israel who intermarried with other people around them.
    Therefore over in Israel you have the good fig tree and the bad fig tree. So they are not all of Israel, which are of Israel.

    Read also Jeremiah 24:1-10, there you will find the two figs are written of.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #120 Faithofchristian, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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