A Challenge for those who believe in a loving God

[Rational Agnostic]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The emerald cockroach wasp, right?
I've used the same example myself from time to time.
I'll be interested if you get any answers which differed from when I asked this question.

 

[SomeRandom]

Nature is what it is. Everything on earth is temporary, including suffering (even what we call "Hell" is temporary.)
Why would a "loving God" allow this?
Why would God only be what we perceive as good? Why would God only do good things? Everything has a dark side, everything has aspects that we don't think are "good." This includes "God."
I have no issue with this duality. Everything is a matter of perspective. To the wasp, it is merely giving it's progeny a real good chance to survive. To the caterpillar, it is being used horribly, inflicted with terrible suffering. Both are valid viewpoints, it is only humans who need to see things in a Good/Bad dichotomy to even attempt to apply morality to situations such as these.

(For the record I fully accept the Theory of Evolution.)

 

[Mister Silver]

Why would God only be what we perceive as good?

Perhaps due to the fact that he is described as omnibenevolent?

 

[SomeRandom]

Perhaps due to the fact that he is described as omnibenevolent?

Depends on who is describing "God." Christians might do that, but other religions don't always use such words. Or even concepts. Hell some people consider suffering to be the real essence of life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

A mother loves her child "and" she cannot stop bad things from influencing her child but to offer care and love to get through life regardless.

Depending on the religion, god's love can be by sacrifice. Why sacrifice yourself unless someone is in danger. So love could be a form of sacrifice and thereby the focus isnt on the birth and death of this life which is normal but the eternal life in the next.

Suffering and death isnt bad in and of itself. We are born, live, age, and die. Someone would argue why would they need god if there was no suffering.

 

[Quagmire]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

) (emphasis mine)

Where are you getting the pain and suffering parts from?

Insects Don't Feel Pain - KnowledgeNuts

Do insects feel pain?

 

[sun rise]

) (emphasis mine)

Where are you getting the pain and suffering parts from?

Insects Don't Feel Pain - KnowledgeNuts

Do insects feel pain?

Pain is physiological. Suffering is an emotion experienced by humans and perhaps a few other species.

 

[Quagmire]

Pain is physiological. Suffering is an emotion experienced by humans and perhaps a few other species.

And apparently caterpillars.

 

[Revoltingest]

In a recent pro-Islam thread, I ran across a translation of the Koran.
In it.....
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

So their loving god, Allah, would smite me, smite me fingers, & burn me for eternity?
If this is loving, I'd hate to see him angry.
Tis no wonder that so many adherents find inspiration to brutally kill the infidel.

Now, the above is not to say all Muslims are terrible.
Most seem quite nice.
But such scripture is a great risk for inspiring wrongful acts in those looking for trouble.

 

[Willamena]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

*raises hand* What evidence do you have that caterpillars have a sense of pain?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In a recent pro-Islam thread, I ran across a translation of the Koran.
In it.....
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

So their loving god, Allah, would smite me, smite me fingers, & burn me for eternity?
If this is loving, I'd hate to see him angry.
Tis no wonder that so many adherents find inspiration to brutally kill the infidel.

Now, the above is not to say all Muslims are terrible.
Most seem quite nice.
But such scripture is a great risk for inspiring wrongful acts in those looking for trouble.

Post a link.

 

[Willamena]

) (emphasis mine)

Where are you getting the pain and suffering parts from?

Insects Don't Feel Pain - KnowledgeNuts

Do insects feel pain?

I suspect we're missing a larger point in this fantasy scenario, but it has yet to present itself.

 

[Willamena]

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

It's okay, because concepts of deity exist in contrast to nature. Nature is abhorrent to them.

(Irony that hopefully lacks in sarcasm.)

P.S.: The alleged "indifference" of natural processes is as abhorrent to a critical thinker as the alleged interest of a god.

 

[Mister Silver]

If this is loving, I'd hate to see him angry.

The ill theistic logic in support of a monstrous god is that a parent justly punishes his/her kids.

Punishment is time out in the corner or being grounded. Burning your child in flames is just plain monstrous.

 

[Revoltingest]

Post a link.

Not even a "please"?
8. Spoils Of War, Booty
It's from
The Quran Translation by Yusuf Ali

 

[sun rise]

In a recent pro-Islam thread, I ran across a translation of the Koran.
In it.....
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

So their loving god, Allah, would smite me, smite me fingers, & burn me for eternity?
If this is loving, I'd hate to see him angry.
Tis no wonder that so many adherents find inspiration to brutally kill the infidel.

Now, the above is not to say all Muslims are terrible.
Most seem quite nice.
But such scripture is a great risk for inspiring wrongful acts in those looking for trouble.

Most scriptures have sections where God is on their side of a battle as in this case. And in the US Civil War God was on both sides. That proves that people are very good at attributing bias to God.

 

[Revoltingest]

The ill theistic logic in support of a monstrous god is that a parent justly punishes his/her kids.

Punishment is time out in the corner or being grounded. Burning your child in flames is just plain monstrous.

Aye, that's how I'd see it...if I were inclined to believe in a god.

 

[Revoltingest]

Most scriptures have sections where God is on their side of a battle as in this case. And in the US Civil War God was on both sides. That proves that people are very good at attributing bias to God.

Hmmmm....beware those with God on their side.

 

[Skwim]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

The evident lack of pain aside, the process is still a gruesome one, which I think a truly loving god would not have visited on caterpillars. But then god has no compunctions with saddling innocent children with debilitating diseases either. In fact, the viciousness we see throughout nature begs the question of a loving god. All of which is conveniently put out of mind by the faithful and their insistence on an omnibenevolent and praiseworthy god. But then, to each his own as one's needs dictate.

.