A Brief Testimony In Relation to My Theological Leanings

[ZenMonkey]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

 

[PureX]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

Being honest in the way you describe pretty much ensures that the world you are living in will have little use for you. And even some animosity toward you, too. After all, you embody a lot of questions that feel like accusations to a lot of people who really don't want to be asking them.

As to the 'sacrifice' aspect of the story of Christ, my suggestion is to remind yourself that it's a STORY. A mythologized story, meaning that it has been "tweeked" to convey an important ideological message, rather than to convey the fact of historical reality. The story is a designed conveyance for the message, and the message is this: that God's love and forgiveness acting within us and through us to others, will heal us and save us from ourselves, and can help us to heal and save others. The whole sacrifice aspect of the story is part of the artifice: part of the story-telling. It's a means of conveying that love and forgiveness from 'God external' to 'God within'. "Christ" is God's Divine Spirit within us. Jesus was the personification and exemplification of this revelation, given to us (now, 2000 years on) in story form.

Don't get tripped up over the images and symbols of the literary artifice (of the story-telling), as so many "Christians" do, and in so doing lose sight of the real message and promise that they were intended to convey to us. The message is true, and the promises are real. They really do manifest in real life if we are willing to accept the message and allow tat divine spirit within us, to have us. To guide us. And to govern our interactions with others.

 

[leov]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

Understanding sacrifice,
Hebrews 9:14 Lexicon: how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?.
Does 'eternal Spirit' bleed?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

I see that is sound and based in Scripture. We answer for our own sins, Jesus Christ showed us how much self we can give up, it was an example to follow.

Regards Tony

 

[Workman]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

Keep your faith strong my brother.

“How do you find, if you have not lost.
And how do you lose, if you have not found.”

You already have it..and it will tell you the ‘Time’.

Keep it strong brother.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The problem is that human sins cannot be paid for by human sacrifice. Only a holy sacrifice is able to pay the price. That is why it was necessary for the only holy person to die for the human sins of others. You can pay your own rent or your own groceries, but you cannot pay for your sins. They have already been paid. You just have to accept the receipt marked PAID.

 

[Deeje]

Ok, so way back in the 90's ... say mid ninties, I decided to accept Jesus yet not accept the so called sacrifice. I feared hell for not accepting the sacrifice, yet I managed to maintain enough faith to keep moving forward and staying true to my convictions. Anyway, It was against my moral standards .. you know, to allow someone else to pay for my wrongs, so I'm paying myself for my own, as in I'm accountable for my own life.

I always feel so sad after reading your posts.....the inner conflict is palpable and somewhat soul destroying.

How does one accept Jesus Christ but deny the benefits of the ransom he paid for us? If you understand the mechanics of Jesus' sacrifice, there can be no rejection of it. We had a debt left to us by our father Adam. A debt none of us could pay. We all inherited the defects that sin introduced into the world and into our genetics....sin is what causes death. No one can dodge that bullet.

Jesus is called our "Redeemer" because he generously paid a debt that none of us ever could. He took the bullet for us.

God's law demanded equivalency..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life"....Adam paid for his own sin with his own life, but the perfect (sinless) life that his children lost could only be paid for by another sinless life being given in our behalf, buying back what Adam forfeited for us. It is something to appreciate, to cherish....not to reject. Jesus offered his life willingly because he loves us. It was a precious gift offered on behalf of all of Adam's children.....we are all Adam's children.

It has been a long hard road and has become ever more difficult in the last few years, but guess what? I get to die when I'm done. No worry about eternal hell or torment or eternal heaven for that matter. I have peace in that reality, yet my living conditions are less than to be desired. Anyway, I believe there is power in being honest and truthful. I also believe life can or could and otherwise would be pretty damn fantastic without the added severity of hardship that's often applied by a few naysayers.

What if there never was a "heaven or hell" scenario ever offered to mankind? You won't find one in the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus was a Jew who knew scripture better than the Pharisees did. You won't find one in the Christian scriptures either because these do not contradict other parts of God's word.

All God's people were ever offered was the choice between life and death. 'Obey God and live...disobey and die.' That was it....simple and uncomplicated. God leaves that choice up to us.....but in order to make a choice, it has to be an informed choice.....I don't believe that you have made your decisions with the whole truth.....it is just the truth that was fed to you by a religious system in confusion. Christendom is not Christianity...and never was.

I'm not judging. I'm just being honest and true and decided to convey my truth to you... here on religious forums. I never told anyone about this until 2004 or was it 2006? It has been a heavy burden to bear to say the least... being a Christian who denied Jesus, yet accepted Jesus too.

You cannot live like that......indecision seems to have plagued you for a long time....I can only imagine the burden.
But James gives us a platform from which to launch our faith.

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways." (James 1:5-8)

Relying on our own wisdom is foolish. None of us can navigate this world on our own, nor can we pick and choose what to believe and what to reject in God's word.....its all or nothing. Either God is real and he has given us his instructions, or he is a figment of our imagination and we have no hope of anything getting better. It takes faith. And faith is something you have to build.....it isn't delivered all at once.

Remember what faith is?
Hebrews 11:1...
"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

If God is real we have to find him......we need reliable guides and a sound knowledge of scripture, not just theology.

Paul's description of God to the men of Athens is powerful....(Acts 17:24-27)

"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us."

Do you know this God? (John 17:3) Do we need him to conform to our view, or are we required to conform to his? Its our choice, but can you see that one of those positions is completely unrealistic?

I wish you peace, and appreciate your honesty......but for spiritually minded people, unless God is in your life on his terms, I don't see how true peace of mind can ever be achievable. The best you can have is resignation. Is it enough?

 

[Aupmanyav]

This kind of belief is psychologically supporting. If it helped you why should I question? Don't struggle with the sacrifice or being raised from dead. Whatever is going to happen will happen.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Understanding sacrifice,
Hebrews 9:14 Lexicon: how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?.
Does 'eternal Spirit' bleed?

My guess is that it has been poured out upon all living ... not as blood but as life force. Somewhere I'm sure the scripture states this and for us not to try to lead others to the lord, and for this very reason ... that the spirit has been poured out upon all flesh.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I always feel so sad after reading your posts.....the inner conflict is palpable and somewhat soul destroying.

How does one accept Jesus Christ but deny the benefits of the ransom he paid for us? If you understand the mechanics of Jesus' sacrifice, there can be no rejection of it. We had a debt left to us by our father Adam. A debt none of us could pay. We all inherited the defects that sin introduced into the world and into our genetics....sin is what causes death. No one can dodge that bullet.

Jesus is called our "Redeemer" because he generously paid a debt that none of us ever could. He took the bullet for us.

God's law demanded equivalency..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life"....Adam paid for his own sin with his own life, but the perfect (sinless) life that his children lost could only be paid for by another sinless life being given in our behalf, buying back what Adam forfeited for us. It is something to appreciate, to cherish....not to reject. Jesus offered his life willingly because he loves us. It was a precious gift offered on behalf of all of Adam's children.....we are all Adam's children.



What if there never was a "heaven or hell" scenario ever offered to mankind? You won't find one in the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus was a Jew who knew scripture better than the Pharisees did. You won't find one in the Christian scriptures either because these do not contradict other parts of God's word.

All God's people were ever offered was the choice between life and death. 'Obey God and live...disobey and die.' That was it....simple and uncomplicated. God leaves that choice up to us.....but in order to make a choice, it has to be an informed choice.....I don't believe that you have made your decisions with the whole truth.....it is just the truth that was fed to you by a religious system in confusion. Christendom is not Christianity...and never was.



You cannot live like that......indecision seems to have plagued you for a long time....I can only imagine the burden.
But James gives us a platform from which to launch our faith.

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways." (James 1:5-8)

Relying on our own wisdom is foolish. None of us can navigate this world on our own, nor can we pick and choose what to believe and what to reject in God's word.....its all or nothing. Either God is real and he has given us his instructions, or he is a figment of our imagination and we have no hope of anything getting better. It takes faith. And faith is something you have to build.....it isn't delivered all at once.

Remember what faith is?
Hebrews 11:1...
"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

If God is real we have to find him......we need reliable guides and a sound knowledge of scripture, not just theology.

Paul's description of God to the men of Athens is powerful....(Acts 17:24-27)

"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us."

Do you know this God? (John 17:3) Do we need him to conform to our view, or are we required to conform to his? Its our choice, but can you see that one of those positions is completely unrealistic?

I wish you peace, and appreciate your honesty......but for spiritually minded people, unless God is in your life on his terms, I don't see how true peace of mind can ever be achievable. The best you can have is resignation. Is it enough?

There's no conflict ... Just an acceptance that the wages of sin is death, which I will do one day. An acceptance of friendship ... mine offered to him. I accept and am willing (as if I could change it) to give my life expectancy and or eternal life for him. An admittance that I find the scape goat mentality disturbing and one I refuse to bow to. ... and an open way to literally follow what he showed us. You live, you die and that's that. I go back to Ecclesiastes where it states there is no thought, no wisdom, no ... in the grave where we will all one day go. And the part about the golden bowl and silver cord being broken and my body returning to dust from where it came and my spirit back to God who gave it. In short, Jesus showed me how to be a friend to him, so that's what I decided to do, so why you find it sad is beyond me, as that's exactly what he and scripture tells us to do. Eternal life ... I don't worry about it for me, but I do like the thought of the further propagation and happiness of our race or species, whether here or somewhere else. Jesus taught me how to shepherd, how to not only dedicate my life but willingly give my life for a friend like him.

 

[ZenMonkey]

The problem is that human sins cannot be paid for by human sacrifice. Only a holy sacrifice is able to pay the price. That is why it was necessary for the only holy person to die for the human sins of others. You can pay your own rent or your own groceries, but you cannot pay for your sins. They have already been paid. You just have to accept the receipt marked PAID.

A wage well earned by living and for making a few mistakes ... You know ... Death. Like Adam and Eve, they didn't die immediately, but a few hundred years later. We live, we mess up (some more than others) then at the end of it all, we can look back, wipe our brows and say to ourselves: "hell yeah" ... Now THAT was one hell of a roller-coaster! Or ... Do like that guy who did that thing with the hells angels... Do a a "Whoah, what I ride"!

 

[ZenMonkey]

Being honest in the way you describe pretty much ensures that the world you are living in will have little use for you. And even some animosity toward you, too. After all, you embody a lot of questions that feel like accusations to a lot of people who really don't want to be asking them.

As to the 'sacrifice' aspect of the story of Christ, my suggestion is to remind yourself that it's a STORY. A mythologized story, meaning that it has been "tweeked" to convey an important ideological message, rather than to convey the fact of historical reality. The story is a designed conveyance for the message, and the message is this: that God's love and forgiveness acting within us and through us to others, will heal us and save us from ourselves, and can help us to heal and save others. The whole sacrifice aspect of the story is part of the artifice: part of the story-telling. It's a means of conveying that love and forgiveness from 'God external' to 'God within'. "Christ" is God's Divine Spirit within us. Jesus was the personification and exemplification of this revelation, given to us (now, 2000 years on) in story form.

Don't get tripped up over the images and symbols of the literary artifice (of the story-telling), as so many "Christians" do, and in so doing lose sight of the real message and promise that they were intended to convey to us. The message is true, and the promises are real. They really do manifest in real life if we are willing to accept the message and allow tat divine spirit within us, to have us. To guide us. And to govern our interactions with others.

The real message ... lets look at it. He came in town eating, drinking, you know ... enjoying life. He hung out with a fairly rowdy crowd, he was accused of having a demon by the "ruling" class, was judged by them in almost everything he did. He countered with a well, ain't that like calling the kettle black by a kettle which is likewise black, meaning he called them out for being the hypocrites that they were. Well, I guess they pretty well came to hate him and those who hung out with him, being they had sought to kill him from before he was born, then guess what? They finally did kill him and beat him to a bloody pulp too, then hung him on a cross, which was customary back then and threw him in a tomb and covered it with a stone or rock or whatever you want to call it. Not just that but they ended up catching up with the others too and did the same to them, save pete ... He elected to be hung upside down.

Anyway, he did what he could to enjoy life, made some good friends, and was killed for it ... by ... You guessed it! Those who thought themselves better than him ... errr ... them. The real message is they kick you when you're up, they kick you when you're down ... and thus far that's been life for a lot of folks.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They finally did kill him and beat him to a bloody pulp too, then hung him on a cross, which was customary back then and threw him in a tomb and covered it with a stone or rock or whatever you want to call it. Not just that but they ended up catching up with the others too and did the same to them, save pete ... He elected to be hung upside down.

Anyway, he did what he could to enjoy life, made some good friends, and was killed for it ... by ... You guessed it! Those who thought themselves better than him ... errr ... them. The real message is they kick you when you're up, they kick you when you're down ... and thus far that's been life for a lot of folks.

Nice stories. No, they did not beat him to pulp (he was carrying his beam, cross, whatever). And did not throw him in a tomb. His companions did that. I do not think he enjoyed his life. He did not even let his companions enjoy life. If one is lecturing or listening to lectures all the time, it is hardly enjoyment. I would not do that, I am not all that self-obsessed. He did not even marry, unless it was some Mary Magdalene.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Nice stories. No, they did not beat him to pulp (he was carrying his beam, cross, whatever). And did not throw him in a tomb. His companions did that. I do not think he enjoyed his life. He did not even let his companions enjoy life. If one is lecturing or listening to lectures all the time, it is hardly enjoyment. I would not do that, I am not all that self-obsessed. He did not even marry, unless it was some Mary Magdalene.

Supplied the wine at a wedding, fed many thousands at a ... we'll call it a block party, cookout, umm .. well ... a party, but lets not squibble or squabble over what you view him to have been and what he was, cool? He was a vagabond ya know? All his life too. Born homeless, continued living as a homeless man. He built houses too, but since he didn't have a place to rest his head, he built them for others ... You know ... He prepared places for people as a carpenter. I'm guessing or maybe not ... That he was both an extremely serious guy and also a whole lot of fun. I guess you gotta know the type to know it or see it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

With all his lecturing and wandering, I do not think he had time to build houses for others - of course, he did talk about it.

 

[ZenMonkey]

With all his lecturing and wandering, I do not think he had time to build houses for others - of course, he did talk about it.

You're right ... He may have been sent to the East to further his education. With all his "lecturing" ya gotta wonder if we was schooled in Buddhist philosophy. It's not like they don't parallel. I'm pretty sure he was a she anyway. Nowadays we'd call her type a queen bee. a room full of noise and dangerous boys ... Jesus was like Joan of Arc, but I'd say she was damn great at building homes ... not just houses. There's a difference ya know?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, he said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be My disciple." He was a great home builder.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Yeah, he said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be My disciple." He was a great home builder.

Like leaves on a tree, leaving home is not an easy thing to do, you know ... go out on your own and live your life abundantly. Hate is defined ... literally ... as love less. The lord is that spirit, some call it freedom, liberty, happiness, etc. and where the spirit of the lord is ... there is LIBERTY. No more servitude but rather friendship and life and truth and a way that surpasses the understanding of many. He was a people builder, a person who showed us how to live abundantly, but ... some people ... some people ... some people ... find his way less than to be desired and prefer to demonize him as opposed to honor the way he was. A free spirited soul who, I would suggest was, born to be ... umm ... wild. For lack of a better term.