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A Bible Riddle: Was Hidden and is Now Found

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by WitnessofJah, Dec 11, 2004.

  1. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    I thought that this would be an interesting riddle for the collective people of RF.com, see if you can work it out! I'm giving you several scriptures, in which all the Blue are CONNECTED to eachother, and the red is the END result of the prophecy. What does it mean?

    DANIEL 4:23-25: "‘And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: "CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it," 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it."




    Revelation 12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days."



    Revelation 12:14: "But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."



    Numbers 14:34: "By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years, as YOU must know what my being estranged means."



    Ezekiel 4:6: "And you must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you."

    What is the answer to this riddle? It has a HUGE important in mankinds history!


     
  2. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Is anybody going to give this a go? :)
     
  3. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i've not got a clue.
     
  4. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    I K(NOW)!!! I K(NOW)!!! Should I wait awhile WitnessOfJah, give everyone a chance?
     
  5. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Yes, feel free to give it a go. ;)

    Is this an educated guess or do you know the breakdown of it?
     
  6. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    WitnessOfJah, Stand by, it will take me time to compose the answer but I promise it will be posted the morning of 12/14/04 I just want to give everyone a moment longer to ponder the question.
     
  7. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    This is the equation for when Jehovah entrusted ruler-ship over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ in the year 1914.

    CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”

    “Seven times”=7X 360=2,520 years

    A Biblical “time” or year=12X30 days=360 (Rev.11:2,3; 12:6, 14)

    In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num: 14:34)

    Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.=1/4 year

    January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. =606 years

    January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 =1,913 years

    January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 =3/4 year

    Total: 2,520 years
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    607 as the end of jerusalem, is not founded outside of the wtbs.
     
  9. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    wait so what makes all these different parts of tha bible, written at different times by different people, part of one coherant prophecy? Sounds wierd to me.

    wa:do
     
  10. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    whether or not they were written at different times by different people has no weight if you consider the writing inspired by an individual.
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    right... and so god just decided for fun to make an obscure riddle scattered through the bible knkowing that someday some bored soul would miraculously put it together?
    What really ties these verces together to make a riddle?
    Sounds more like someone was stretching for this one to me.

    wa:do
     
  12. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i think it was stretched for too.but, you don't have to be bored to look for 'codes' in scripture.some consider it fun, or meaningful.
     
  13. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    That is an incorrect statement.

    Where do we get the date of 607 B.C.E. from as the destruction of Jerusalem? The answer, as always: THE BIBLE.

    Historians usually give the year 586 B.C.E. as the correct date for the desolation of Jerusalem. Why, then, do Jehovah’s Witnesses speak of this event as occurring in 607 B.C.E.? It is because of confidence in what the Bible says about the duration of Jerusalem’s lying desolate:

    2 Chronicles 36:21: "To fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."

    Jeremiah 25:11: "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."’

    Daniel 9:2: "In the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years. "

    What has this "70 years" got to do with anything?, I hear you ask. Well this figure has a HUGE significance in deciding the date of Jerusalem getting destroyed.

    From the Scriptural record at 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 and Ezra 3:1-3, which tells of Cyrus’ decree liberating the Jews and their return to their homeland, the indications are that the Jews arrived back in their homeland around the early part of October of 537 B.C.E., ending the seventy years of desolation. Jerusalem must, therefore, have been destroyed seventy years earlier, in 607 B.C.E.

    So with that established, you have to ask yourself this question. Do I believe the Bible's account OR do I believe some "historian" who THINKS he knows what he's talking about? You decide.

    WitnessofJah
     
  14. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Is that too difficult for God himself to do?

    2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness."
     
  15. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    This is not some meaningless riddle which was just put into the pages of the Bible for the sake of it - the date 1914, has HUGE ramifications - both historically and spiritually.



    Also, out of all the possible 1000's of different figures in the Bible, why do these few verses stand out and draw themselves together? Coincidence? Or by divine authority? Nothing happens by accident in the Bible - God is it's author and knows all. So why?



    Also, good question, WHY do these few scriptures which are scattered throughout the Bible all come together as one? To answer these questions, we have to examine the scriptures themselves:



    DANIEL 4:23-25: "‘And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: "CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it," 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it."

    These verses have an initial and further fulfilment. The initial fulfilment was Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom (Babylon) getting "chopped down" (i.e. the tree) and also, he went on to go insane for 7 years, therefore fulfilling the "seven times". However, it does not end there - it is also a prophecy which had nothing to do with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon. What is it? Well if you look at verse 25, it talks about how "the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it." Is this talking about Nebuchadnezzar? No! In the light of other scriptures and of it's own this "most high ruler" is none other than Jehovah God himself and the "one whom he wants to give it" is his Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, the whole few verses around verse 25 suddenly change context. This “tree” that was chopped down represented God’s nation of Israel that were God’s representatives on earth and under divine leadership. When that “tree” was chopped down, however, that “special relationship” ended with Jehovah – and he was without official earthly representatives. How did this “tree” which represented Israel get chopped down? Well in 607 B.C.E., the Babylonians came and destroyed Jerusalem (under God’s manoeuvring), and therefore, “chopped down the great tree” – which was also “banded” which meant that it was stopped from growing. So therefore, we get a stoppage in time from “God’s official representatives on earth” in 607 B.C.E. The other figures we get are “seven” (and it is no coincidence that it is mentioned twice).

    So now, we have the following prophetical figures: 607 B.C.E. and “Seven” (7). What are the next scriptures (which are tied to the exact same cause of Divine leadership)?

    Revelation 12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days."



    Revelation 12:14: "But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."

    Notice how these are two different scriptures saying EXACTLY the SAME thing in two different ways? Both scriptures are the same scenario but said in two unique and separate ways. What is the meaning of this? Coincidence? Not at all. The vision of John picks up the thought introduced in verse 6, which tells us that after the birth of her child, the woman flees into the wilderness, away from the dragon. We may wonder how the dragon can persecute the woman, since she is in heaven and the dragon has now been cast down to the earth. Well, remember that the woman has children here on earth, her seed. Later in this vision, we are informed that Satan expresses his rage toward the woman by persecuting her seed. (Revelation 12:17) What happens to the woman’s seed here on earth may be regarded as happening to the woman herself. (Matthew 25:40.) And the growing number of companions of the seed here on earth would also experience these persecutions. Therefore for the first time in 2520 years, God had finally got official representatives on earth and are part Jesus’ Messianic kingdom! The verses of Revelation also give times of the how long that distance of time it takes for this kingdom to establish. What are these sums?

    “1,260 Days” (Rev 12:6)

    “A time and times and half a time”(Rev 12:14)

    However, 1,260 “literal days” does not make sense. Why, that is only just over 3 years! But no, there is more to come:

    Numbers 14:34: "By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years, as YOU must know what my being estranged means."



    Ezekiel 4:6: "And you must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days.
    A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you."

    Is it a coincidence that the Bible mentions this twice? No, DIVINE INTERVENTION!

    So there we have it:

    1260 day = 1260 years Time, Times, and half a time = 3.5

    607 B.C.E = Divine leader ended Seven= 3.5 (Rev 12:14) x 2 = Seven

    So, 1260 (Rev 12:6) x 2 (Rev 12:14) and (Daniel 4:23) = 2520 Years

    607 B.C.E. – 2520 = 1913 C.E. (counting the year “0”) = 1914 C.E. = When Jehovah gave Jesus leadership over the earth.

    Also the year 1914 is not only a divine date, but it is also a historical landmark among humans also. In the year 1914, World War 1 broke out in which 40,000,000 perished, a war which had been unprecedented up until that point in man’s history? Coincidence? No – it fulfilled another prophecy (Matt 24:7), and proves that we are now in the “beginning of the end system of things” which directly leads up the path the ARMAGEDON (Rev 16:16)
     
  16. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    if you want this tack to be the hang up instead of 607, then fine.

    'the indications'...that's enough for you?you do know that at the time, 1914 was not preached as the return of the messiah right?it wasn't until the 1930's that the jw's changed their mind on this particular issue.this coincidentally was the same time they chose that the 144k gates would close in the same year the membership surpassed 144k.

    keep in mind that we don't even know which yaer the messiah was born.so to base a prophesy according to the year 1914 as it is based on his assumed birth(though regularly disputed to be otherwise), is questionable at best.
     
  17. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    If somebody has a better idea with evidence to back up their claims - I would like to hear it. If you can explain to me these scriptures and why they were put in the Bible - and would like to hear your version of these texts. Until then...

    In earlier days, we did make some mistakes - which were PUT RIGHT later. This is much better than Christendom today who still firmly stick to their doctrines in the face of FACT. The light has been getting brighter for us ever since we started. NOW, we are probably the most well-versed religion on earth. Who seems to be doing the better now? The light has been getting "brighter" for the righteous ones, just like the Bible foretold:

    "Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, and rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart."—Ps. 97:11.

    "But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. 19 The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling." - Proverbs 4:18,19.

    HelpMe, what is your interpretation of these scriptures, perfect from day 1 or gradual improvement?

    The 1914 calculation has nothing to do when the Messiah was born - read the scriptures again. :)
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So what happened in 1914??? Did the world end, and no one told me about it?
     
  19. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    world war 1.

    changed the world.
     
  20. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    World War 1 is a HUGE landmark of 1914. Coincidence? Or prophecy? It also fulfills Matthew 24 with the event of WW1.

    1914 was not the date of the end of the world (NetDoc), but rather, when God almighty, gave his Son, Jesus Christ, the rulership of the earth. Daniel 4:25: "...Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it."

    Read my explanation at the top of this page. :)
     
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