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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
uh, well, that's not how a forum discussion works. As of now, only a few people are contributing their analysis of the study article. This thread is not meant to be a single pair discussion.

I'm still waiting for more input from the rest of you all....
Sorry, but this stuff has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum, and those who use their religion to try and discount science simply are not open to objective information. I came from one of those fundamentalist churches that taught about the "evil" of "evilution", so I know that mindset. I am not a geneticist but, as I mentioned, we use their information all the time as that's their area of expertise. And, frankly, I have never met or read anything from a single geneticist who disagrees with the basic ToE.

And when someone uses "information" from "Answers In Genesis", that tells me they really have no interest in science whatsoever.
 
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jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
"ad nauseum" or ad "nauseam" Makes no difference.
This topic has been hashed to death.
But this topic did get 4 pages of replies.:D
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
It's (as near as makes no difference) a scientific fact.
Only left out the qualifier cuz too many people use the "it's just a theory" argument.
I do not blame people, and I don't consider it willful ignorance when people believe in Creationist literature.

Most people see documentaries on TV that proclaim we evolved and which show some fossils, some graphics etc. Not many people know how scientific research operates or why Scientists believe in evolution. It is an onion with layers, and peeling a layer requires understanding some things like Math.

I went all the way through high school with no one proving to me that nuclear decay rates were predictable, and the only reply to the question was that it could be derived Mathematically -- not helpful. A constant decay rate was always assumed and calculated on the assumption that they were constant. This did not help me to trust the Science, nor did I really understand how research progressed. The occasionally forged skeletons of 'Missing' species did not help. Creationist materials cited problems with fossil strata and erroneous results with carbon dating, touted the rates of escape of He from Earth's crust, postulated ways that Earth could be younger and pointed out lies made by various people working in Science fields.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I do not blame people, and I don't consider it willful ignorance when people believe in Creationist literature.
To a degree I agree with you, but then I do have to place some blame on the people who simply are not willing to even consider looking seriously into science and not just pseudo-science. It was my interest in biology, even before leaving high school, that finally made me realize that I was being sold a "bill of goods" in my church, and I even had tentative plans on going into the ministry.

It was a Catholic priest that I ran across when I was a junior in high school who informed me that one could still believe in God and Jesus and also the basic ToE, as long as it was understood that God was the cause of it all. However, that just confused me even more, and it wasn't until about 15 years later that I was able to sort things out theologically.

The unfortunate reality, and I think we've all been there for one thing or another, is that "confirmation bias" with many people is so powerful that they're unwilling to even try and look at things objectively. In large part, psychologists say we're often afraid of finding out we're wrong, plus there's the problem of maybe having to change a large part of our entire mind-set. IOW, a change in one area can lead to changes in other areas as well, and that can be very disconcerting. I was one of those who went through a period of personal upheaval in this area, thus leading me away from any religious involvement for about 15 years of my life.

So, I agree with what you've said above, but I also have to feel that people should have the guts to take a chance on trying to study and understand different perspectives.
 

ftacky

Member
I am not a geneticist but, as I mentioned, we use their information all the time as that's their area of expertise. And, frankly, I have never met or read anything from a single geneticist who disagrees with the basic ToE.

If you believe chimps and humans are 99% similar, I assume you yourselves have hashed and rehashed the data ON YOUR OWN, not just read the arguments and presentations of others, right?

Just because you are not a geneticist does not relieve you of your ability and responsibility to look at the data, the charts, etc. on your own. I assume you came to your own conclusion based on your OWN analysis.

I assume you have done this already, and since you hashed and rehashed it yourself using your OWN analysis and stats, please show it here for the rest of us to see and appreciate.

Since many of you believe the data shows 99% similarity between chimps and humans, I am asking anyone else here to provide their analysis using the data, stats, charts, etc. which confirmed your belief.

If you're hinging your belief on SOMEONE ELSE'S analysis rather than your own, please state as such.

If you chose to believe but never did your own analysis of the data, please state as such.

Once again, only a few here are providing their own analysis of the article - which is surprising to me. Many believe but almost nobody did their own homework?

I prefer others to provide their own analysis - still waiting for that analysis (your OWN work, that is)....

2 Peter 3: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
 
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ftacky

Member
I went all the way through high school with no one proving to me that nuclear decay rates were predictable, and the only reply to the question was that it could be derived Mathematically -- not helpful. A constant decay rate was always assumed and calculated on the assumption that they were constant.

Off topic but, many (not all) secularists tend to look at radiometric dating ASSUMING:there was no decayed material (Lead/Pb) at the beginning.
However, the Bible seems to imply there was decayed material to begin with in that: The world was made fully mature and functional. This is a huge difference in viewpoint!

This would mean the earth immediately after the initial creation:
1) would have some radioactive material and some decayed lead already existing in the ground
2) starlight millions of light years away would already be reaching the earth.
3) Adam and Eve were fully adult
4) The food producing trees and plants would be fully mature and producing food.

Part of radiometric dating comes from accurately measuring the ratio of parent to daughter material to determine how much parent material has decayed. But this ratio is unknowable since we weren't there at initial creation to know the initial parent/daughter ratio.

Furthermore, due to underground water erosion, etc. we don't know if the initial ratio has been modified due to those erosion forces on that sample. Did a piece of parent or daughter material break off some time ago or was there absolutely no erosion whatsoever?

It would make no sense for God to produce stars if there was no light reaching earth for Adam and Eve to appreciate.
It would make no sense for God to produce small seedlings while Adam and Eve starved while waiting for the plants to mature.
It would make no sense for God to produce little baby Adam and baby Eve who, on their own, probably wouldn't last very long.

Genesis 1:12: The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind.
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
If you believe chimps and humans are 99% similar, I assume you yourselves have hashed and rehashed the data ON YOUR OWN, not just read the arguments and presentations of others, right?

Just because you are not a geneticist does not relieve you of your ability and responsibility to look at the data, the charts, etc. on your own. I assume you came to your own conclusion based on your OWN analysis.

I assume you have done this already, and since you hashed and rehashed it yourself using your OWN analysis and stats, please show it here for the rest of us to see and appreciate.

Since many of you believe the data shows 99% similarity between chimps and humans, I am asking anyone else here to provide their analysis using the data, stats, charts, etc. which confirmed your belief.

If you're hinging your belief on SOMEONE ELSE'S analysis rather than your own, please state as such.

If you chose to believe but never did your own analysis of the data, please state as such.

Once again, only a few here are providing their own analysis of the article - which is surprising to me. Many believe but almost nobody did their own homework?

I prefer others to provide their own analysis - still waiting for that analysis (your OWN work, that is)....

2 Peter 3: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
I actually begin with the Bible and realize reading the Bible literally forces non-literal reading. I notice that in the Bible there are many wrong ideas about the solar system but that the Bible isn't commenting scientifically. It uses the Sun as a symbol, not as an Astronomical navigational tool. Its not a textbook on the physical world. You have Peter announcing the wholesale destruction of the planet, and this contradicts the promise to Noah. Why does 2 Peter tout Noah's flood when its pretty plain that Noah's flood is a story about peace and an everlasting covenant? The covenant with Noah is everlasting, but to 2 Peter it ends with fire and brimstone? No. This is plain symbolic language, but being unfamiliar with it and particularly its use in the Psalms leaves you thinking that it is about planetary destruction. The 'Heavens' has a meaning in the Bible and refers to the sons of God, who are stars in Bible passages. 2 Peter is speaking to Bible readers -- not to people who start from the back and read toward the front. First become familiar with Bible usages for things like 'Heavens' and then read 2 Peter. Learn the stories and note the 12 gemstones that the priests wear on the Ephod and what they are about.. Notice your passage 2 Peter 3:10 says the Heavens (common symbol for sons of God) disappear with a roar and the 'Elements' (12 stones symbolizing twelve tribes) are destroyed by fire. This is the kind of destruction that matters to Peter. He is not concerned about material things. He would not give a flying flip if the world were burned versus overrun by deadly chickens.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If you believe chimps and humans are 99% similar, I assume you yourselves have hashed and rehashed the data ON YOUR OWN, not just read the arguments and presentations of others, right?

Just because you are not a geneticist does not relieve you of your ability and responsibility to look at the data, the charts, etc. on your own. I assume you came to your own conclusion based on your OWN analysis.

I assume you have done this already, and since you hashed and rehashed it yourself using your OWN analysis and stats, please show it here for the rest of us to see and appreciate.

Since many of you believe the data shows 99% similarity between chimps and humans, I am asking anyone else here to provide their analysis using the data, stats, charts, etc. which confirmed your belief.

If you're hinging your belief on SOMEONE ELSE'S analysis rather than your own, please state as such.

If you chose to believe but never did your own analysis of the data, please state as such.

Once again, only a few here are providing their own analysis of the article - which is surprising to me. Many believe but almost nobody did their own homework?

I prefer others to provide their own analysis - still waiting for that analysis (your OWN work, that is)....

2 Peter 3: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
I do believe I've made my point quite clearly and why I take that position, so brow-beating me accomplishes nothing. I'm not a geneticist, and I assume that you're not either, so I know my limitations in that arena but it appears that you don't. I have been a long-term subscriber to "Scientific American" for almost 50 years now, and I don't know how many articles I've read written by geneticists over those years, and not one of them doubts for one minute that there's been an evolutionary process that's gone on for billions of years.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Since 2003, false claims by evolutionary biologists started cropping up in the popular media stating that the human genome and chimp genome are 99% identical, thus proving evolution. This falsely implied that a COMPLETE genome of both was compared. This is a false claim on so many levels:

1) Genome mapping is only concerned with the protein coding sequences, estimated at between 1-4% of the entire genome. The remainder of the genome, much of which is considered to be "junk DNA" by many in the field, has not been completely mapped to date.

2) What was actually compared between humans and chimps was ONLY the protein-coding sequences - which make up less than 4% of the total genome. The latest studies show it to be as low as 1% of the total genome.

3) The comparison studies used mathematical algorythms rather than a direct genome-to-genome comparison which is considered too laborious at this time of technology.

4) The algorythms have been constantly improved and tweaked since the initial studies to more accurately reflect a real comparison - by including indels for example. The 99% has slowly decreased in value. The 99% was initially downgraded to 98%, then 96%, then 85%, and the most current studies show 70% similarity. Do you see the trend?

5) The initial studies back in 2003 also claimed that the genome of humans and bananas had a 50% similarity. This credulously implied that we, as humans, were 50% banana! Undoubtedly, this 50% number is also too high. Nonetheless, evolutionary biologists with PhDs were quick to jump on the bandwagon and started telling the public that we were actually one-half of a banana! So much for academic honesty.

Nonetheless, the question remains: Why should humans have any genomic similarity with bananas and chimps, even small similarities? This is why:

1) If we have no genomic similarity with bananas, we cannot assimilate (digest and absorb) bananas. We must have at least SOME genomic similarity with the things we eat, otherwise we would starve.

2) All life on Earth is based on the same carbon/nitrogen/water-based system so we should expect some similarity. This should only make sense to any biologist.

3) Even the Director of the Human Genome project has admitted:
"...we were a bit dismissive about that 98.5% of it and said that a lot of it was kind of a junk. I don't think people are using the word "Junk" any more when they are talking about the genome, because the more we study, the more functions we find in that "filler" - which is not a "filler" at all."
Francis Collins, Director, National Human Genome Research Institute


This whole situation should cause one to wonder about the ethics of evolutionary teachings by those who make exaggerated claims and misinform the public. This only goes to show:

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4)

For more info:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40441/title/Human-Gene-Set-Shrinks-Again/
https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/fresh-look-human-chimp-dna-similarity/

1. unsubstantiated claim.....why would that be the case?

2. It does make sense to a biologist. That is why the theory of evolution is supported by the evidence we have, and creationism has no facts to support it. That is why creationists spend all there time trying to poke holes in a well founded theory instead of coming up with their own theory in which all the facts will fit and make sense. They just cannot do it. Google away.....it isn't there.

3. so we are learning more and more about the way DNA works and how it guides the evolutionary process. I see no god mentioned here.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Since 2003, false claims by evolutionary biologists started cropping up in the popular media stating that the human genome and chimp genome are 99% identical, thus proving evolution. This falsely implied that a COMPLETE genome of both was compared. This is a false claim on so many levels:

1) Genome mapping is only concerned with the protein coding sequences, estimated at between 1-4% of the entire genome. The remainder of the genome, much of which is considered to be "junk DNA" by many in the field, has not been completely mapped to date.

2) What was actually compared between humans and chimps was ONLY the protein-coding sequences - which make up less than 4% of the total genome. The latest studies show it to be as low as 1% of the total genome.

3) The comparison studies used mathematical algorythms rather than a direct genome-to-genome comparison which is considered too laborious at this time of technology.

4) The algorythms have been constantly improved and tweaked since the initial studies to more accurately reflect a real comparison - by including indels for example. The 99% has slowly decreased in value. The 99% was initially downgraded to 98%, then 96%, then 85%, and the most current studies show 70% similarity. Do you see the trend?

5) The initial studies back in 2003 also claimed that the genome of humans and bananas had a 50% similarity. This credulously implied that we, as humans, were 50% banana! Undoubtedly, this 50% number is also too high. Nonetheless, evolutionary biologists with PhDs were quick to jump on the bandwagon and started telling the public that we were actually one-half of a banana! So much for academic honesty.

Nonetheless, the question remains: Why should humans have any genomic similarity with bananas and chimps, even small similarities? This is why:

1) If we have no genomic similarity with bananas, we cannot assimilate (digest and absorb) bananas. We must have at least SOME genomic similarity with the things we eat, otherwise we would starve.

2) All life on Earth is based on the same carbon/nitrogen/water-based system so we should expect some similarity. This should only make sense to any biologist.

3) Even the Director of the Human Genome project has admitted:
"...we were a bit dismissive about that 98.5% of it and said that a lot of it was kind of a junk. I don't think people are using the word "Junk" any more when they are talking about the genome, because the more we study, the more functions we find in that "filler" - which is not a "filler" at all."
Francis Collins, Director, National Human Genome Research Institute


This whole situation should cause one to wonder about the ethics of evolutionary teachings by those who make exaggerated claims and misinform the public. This only goes to show:

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4)

For more info:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40441/title/Human-Gene-Set-Shrinks-Again/
https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/fresh-look-human-chimp-dna-similarity/
Since 2003, false claims by evolutionary biologists started cropping up in the popular media stating that the human genome and chimp genome are 99% identical, thus proving evolution. This falsely implied that a COMPLETE genome of both was compared. This is a false claim on so many levels:

1) Genome mapping is only concerned with the protein coding sequences, estimated at between 1-4% of the entire genome. The remainder of the genome, much of which is considered to be "junk DNA" by many in the field, has not been completely mapped to date.

2) What was actually compared between humans and chimps was ONLY the protein-coding sequences - which make up less than 4% of the total genome. The latest studies show it to be as low as 1% of the total genome.

3) The comparison studies used mathematical algorythms rather than a direct genome-to-genome comparison which is considered too laborious at this time of technology.

4) The algorythms have been constantly improved and tweaked since the initial studies to more accurately reflect a real comparison - by including indels for example. The 99% has slowly decreased in value. The 99% was initially downgraded to 98%, then 96%, then 85%, and the most current studies show 70% similarity. Do you see the trend?

5) The initial studies back in 2003 also claimed that the genome of humans and bananas had a 50% similarity. This credulously implied that we, as humans, were 50% banana! Undoubtedly, this 50% number is also too high. Nonetheless, evolutionary biologists with PhDs were quick to jump on the bandwagon and started telling the public that we were actually one-half of a banana! So much for academic honesty.

Nonetheless, the question remains: Why should humans have any genomic similarity with bananas and chimps, even small similarities? This is why:

1) If we have no genomic similarity with bananas, we cannot assimilate (digest and absorb) bananas. We must have at least SOME genomic similarity with the things we eat, otherwise we would starve.

2) All life on Earth is based on the same carbon/nitrogen/water-based system so we should expect some similarity. This should only make sense to any biologist.

3) Even the Director of the Human Genome project has admitted:
"...we were a bit dismissive about that 98.5% of it and said that a lot of it was kind of a junk. I don't think people are using the word "Junk" any more when they are talking about the genome, because the more we study, the more functions we find in that "filler" - which is not a "filler" at all."
Francis Collins, Director, National Human Genome Research Institute


This whole situation should cause one to wonder about the ethics of evolutionary teachings by those who make exaggerated claims and misinform the public. This only goes to show:

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4)

For more info:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40441/title/Human-Gene-Set-Shrinks-Again/
https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/fresh-look-human-chimp-dna-similarity/

What is the point of this posting? That science is continually improving it's understanding of how DNA plays a role in evolution? well, that is what it actually does.

But suppose that you can show that the theory of evolution is completely wrong (this does not show that at all)......then what? It only ends with a "we do not know"....... a question yet to be answered. That is it.
 

ScottySatan

Well-Known Member
In many years of studying genetics and evolution, I was never once told that the similarity between our genomes is evidence for evolution. A paper might mention it, but I really don't think it's a big part of the argument.

I'm not surprised to hear that the 99% similarity number is wrong, because I've been hearing that number since many years before whole genome sequencing was available. They simply did the best they could with the mapping techniques of the time. It's very common for science to correct itself in light of more data and additional context, but the original observations are still accurate. The people that say that science contradicts itself are science journalists and commentators, not scientists.

I'm especially not surprised to hear that it's the intergenic sequences that are making such a big difference, we know that these evolve rapidly and are known to be one mechanism by which we evolve so rapidly.

Long story short, I didn't know that there is less similarity than 99%, but I believe it to be very possible and I'm not surprised at all. And this has nothing to say against the theory of evolution.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Long story short, I didn't know that there is less similarity than 99%, but I believe it to be very possible and I'm not surprised at all. And this has nothing to say against the theory of evolution.
You might check out post #9 whereas I linked readers to actual scientific sites on this.
 

ScottySatan

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I did see that and should have reworded my stuff but didn't. Let me rephrase that by saying "even if it were really only 70%...".
 

ftacky

Member
I do believe I've made my point quite clearly and why I take that position, so brow-beating me accomplishes nothing. I'm not a geneticist, and I assume that you're not either, so I know my limitations in that arena but it appears that you don't. I have been a long-term subscriber to "Scientific American" for almost 50 years now, and I don't know how many articles I've read written by geneticists over those years, and not one of them doubts for one minute that there's been an evolutionary process that's gone on for billions of years.

So you believe what others say without an understanding of your own. I get it. Many of us operate in a similar manner.

Here is what I suspect. Most people believe and /or accept the theory of evolution or big bang theories as fact, based on:

1) Whether a scientist said it (aka. the educational credentials of the claim-maker).
2) The sheer number of scientists who said it (aka. 'truth' is based on popular vote, the more scientists who say the same, the stronger the claim).

I have a few problems with this.

1) Questions about the origin of the universe, origin of life, etc. are so huge, I suspect the answers a way beyond mere humans to discover the answers to. Which leaves us with mere "guesses". Unfortunately, the truthful descriptive word "guess" never seems to be included in such guesswork.

2) Humans have a propensity to make huge claims of knowledge, etc. because we are prideful, conceited, and many of us are just plain megalomaniacs, making claims so large - especially about our scientific knowledge, that we exceed our bounds of what we truly know. If a scientist made a huge (and bogus claim) it wouldn't be the first nor last. Scientists are just as prone to various human weaknesses as the rest of us mortals.

3) Sheer numbers of scientists, etc. don't negate the above two problems. Many false claims have been made and believed in the past. Very unfortunate.

4) We don't need to be 'scientists' to step into the foray and read articles and dissect them. Is it that our brain isn't up to the level of a scientist or is it that we are unnecessarily intimidated by the material?

What Jesus said applies here:
The Narrow and Wide Gates

Matthew 7:“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

The broad road is the one running away from God while the narrow one leads to God. Most are on the broad road because this is the 'natural state' of mankind. We will notice Jesus did not mention the educational status of anyone on the roads. Its not our education or lack of it that is the problem, but our motives and desires. Our natural state is to reject any authority above us.

We are naturally geared to reject God.
 
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ftacky

Member
So, other than the few of us who have already given our analysis of the Chimp/Human DNA article, no one else has done so.

I can only conclude the rest of you have placed your faith on one side or the other WITHOUT reading the article.

So many believe the Bible without reading it and so many believe we are 99% similar to chimps without any desire to study or understand.

The religious and the irreligious are not so different after all.

Note: I have a bit more analysis on this topic but will wait a little longer to see if anyone else has decided to read the article and provide their own analysis (rather than to simply believe which is nothing but faith).
 
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Here is what I suspect. Most people believe and /or accept the theory of evolution or big bang theories as fact, based on:

1) Whether a scientist said it (aka. the educational credentials of the claim-maker).
2) The sheer number of scientists who said it (aka. 'truth' is based on popular vote, the more scientists who say the same, the stronger the claim).

No.
This is ridiculous.
If your deepest conclusion as to why people accept the evolutionary explanations of biological diversity is based on the appeal to authority fallacy, then you don't talk to enough people.
If, in a hypothetical world, not a single scientist ever mentioned of referenced evolutionary theory again, it would still be true. We have a very good understanding of how the mechanisms of natural selection work and how they impact the gene flow in populations over time. Once someone actually understands what evolutionary science is, and doesn't simply rely on their elementary knowledge of the words that are said, it becomes much easier to understand it, test it, and explain it.

I have a few problems with this.

1) Questions about the origin of the universe, origin of life, etc. are so huge, I suspect the answers a way beyond mere humans to discover the answers to. Which leaves us with mere "guesses". Unfortunately, the truthful descriptive word "guess" never seems to be included in such guesswork.

2) Humans have a propensity to make huge claims of knowledge, etc. because we are prideful, conceited, and many of us are just plain megalomaniacs, making claims so large - especially about our scientific knowledge, that we exceed our bounds of what we truly know. If a scientist made a huge (and bogus claim) it wouldn't be the first nor last. Scientists are just as prone to various human weaknesses as the rest of us mortals.

3) Sheer numbers of scientists, etc. don't negate the above two problems. Many false claims have been made and believed in the past. Very unfortunate.

4) We don't need to be 'scientists' to step into the foray and read articles and dissect them. Is it that our brain isn't up to the level of a scientist or is it that we are unnecessarily intimidated by the material?


1) You mean hypothesize...?
Let me ask you a question:
How big was the Earth before people started sailing around it? What was our knowledge of the Planet before we knew it was a sphere?
How big were the continents before we started mapping them?
How big was the Solar System before we invented telescopes? Was the Sun at the center, or was the Earth? Are the Moon and the Sun the same size?

At one time, those could have been looked at as unanswerable questions - but we have answers to them...

Your ignorance of a thing does not mean that it's not well known. Your ideas about evolution, for example, fall into this category. There will always be things that we don't know. Each new discovery also raises new questions. That's how knowledge works for infants and it's how knowledge works for humanity as a whole. Current ignorance of a topic does not mean that you should stop asking questions or searching for answers. It means you should try harder to figure them out. Don't rest on your laurels.

2.) You are correct - though I think you fail to realize the implications of what you're criticizing here when it comes to your own stance...
The flaws of human reasoning and logic, and the fact that we are prone to biases, are why science has built-in mechanisms to help weed out these things. It's self-correcting, given time, because it is designed to question, test, pick apart, and dissect every aspect of a peer's methodology and findings. This is the very basis of scientific understanding. If something isn't testable and repeatable, then it's probably not true and needs to be jettisoned to constantly accumulating pile of nonsense that we humans have believed over the years.

Can you say the same of religion? Can you say the same of faith? Do holy claims and presuppositions pass the same rigorous testing procedure before being taught to the masses? Is there any self-correcting mechanism among the faiths which will happily reject false statements?

3.) Again - you are correct. The difference between science and faith is that science happily rids itself of these false beliefs in pursuit of knowledge. Religion is the exact opposite, presupposing an answer to a question and then spending thousands of years before gradually beginning to make changes to its dogmas.

Think about it.

4.) Yes you do... To suggest otherwise is idiotic.
What business does a kindergarten student have judging a calculus exam? The only answer that you can give here is "none". The mathematical knowledge of an Elementary student is not sufficient to judge the work of a trigonometry major. Do you disagree with that statement?

When the mathematical knowledge of that student is on par with that of advanced mathematics, then (and only then), would the student's judgments be of any real value.

Again, if you are intimidated by the science that you read about, or if you are ignorant of a topic, then educate yourself. There are very good sources out there that will help condense the more difficult parts of scientific information so that they can be more easily digested by the general population. There's nothing wrong with reading a "For Dummies" book, for example. All knowledge starts will baby steps. I know what I know about Astrobiology not because I woke up one day and knew everything - but because I've spent years reading and studying almost everything that I can get my hands on in regards to that field. That's how all knowledge works. Just because you don't fully understand something doesn't mean that it's not true... It simply means that you just don't know enough about it...
And if you don't understand even the basics of a topic, then you certainly don't have the knowledge or credentials required to critique it.

We are naturally geared to reject God.

Again, this is factually false.
We are, for various evolutionary reasons, predisposed to faith in a higher power. It's a vestige of our group struggle for survivability. There are many studies which support this, ranging through almost all of the human science fields.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, other than the few of us who have already given our analysis of the Chimp/Human DNA article, no one else has done so.

I can only conclude the rest of you have placed your faith on one side or the other WITHOUT reading the article.

So many believe the Bible without reading it and so many believe we are 99% similar to chimps without any desire to study or understand.

The religious and the irreligious are not so different after all.

Note: I have a bit more analysis on this topic but will wait a little longer to see if anyone else has decided to read the article and provide their own analysis (rather than to simply believe which is nothing but faith).
I would like a reply to the response I posted here,
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/99-chimp-dna-similarity-not.190528/page-3#post-4889805
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The religious and the irreligious are not so different after all.
It is an error to assume that someone is "irreligious" because they accept science. And where faith and science differ is that faith is faith, whereas science has data and facts to back it up.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
So you believe what others say without an understanding of your own. I get it. Many of us operate in a similar manner.

Here is what I suspect. Most people believe and /or accept the theory of evolution or big bang theories as fact, based on:

1) Whether a scientist said it (aka. the educational credentials of the claim-maker).
2) The sheer number of scientists who said it (aka. 'truth' is based on popular vote, the more scientists who say the same, the stronger the claim).

I have a few problems with this.

1) Questions about the origin of the universe, origin of life, etc. are so huge, I suspect the answers a way beyond mere humans to discover the answers to. Which leaves us with mere "guesses". Unfortunately, the truthful descriptive word "guess" never seems to be included in such guesswork.

2) Humans have a propensity to make huge claims of knowledge, etc. because we are prideful, conceited, and many of us are just plain megalomaniacs, making claims so large - especially about our scientific knowledge, that we exceed our bounds of what we truly know. If a scientist made a huge (and bogus claim) it wouldn't be the first nor last. Scientists are just as prone to various human weaknesses as the rest of us mortals.

3) Sheer numbers of scientists, etc. don't negate the above two problems. Many false claims have been made and believed in the past. Very unfortunate.

4) We don't need to be 'scientists' to step into the foray and read articles and dissect them. Is it that our brain isn't up to the level of a scientist or is it that we are unnecessarily intimidated by the material?

What Jesus said applies here:
The Narrow and Wide Gates

Matthew 7:“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

The broad road is the one running away from God while the narrow one leads to God. Most are on the broad road because this is the 'natural state' of mankind. We will notice Jesus did not mention the educational status of anyone on the roads. Its not our education or lack of it that is the problem, but our motives and desires. Our natural state is to reject any authority above us.

We are naturally geared to reject God.

If the theory of evolution were proved resoundingly wrong tomorrow, it does not get you to "Jesus". It just leaves you with a mystery.
 

ftacky

Member
If the theory of evolution were proved resoundingly wrong tomorrow, it does not get you to "Jesus". It just leaves you with a mystery.

True. Proving evolution wrong does not get us to Jesus. But proving a half-baked fallacy wrong is a fools errand.

But back to the question:
If you did not perform your own analysis of the chimp DNA article, how did you come to believe it?

Is it because a bunch of scientists told you to believe it?

It all comes down to one word: faith.

Matthew 7: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

There are many people on the broad road to destruction - of all walks of life - including scientists. Yep, even scientists are running away from God, to their own destruction. And some of us choose to follow them - hook, line, and sinker - to our own demise.

Which road are you on?
 
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