80,000 immigrants. That's a big number.

[Guitar's Cry]

My mistake.

A modification of my point still stands. This report and the one about citizens is using different standards thus are not comparable. An arrest and apprehension is different from having a criminal record itself. The former is part of a criminal record but not the sole determination nor criteria of the criminal record. One can be detained (different from an arrest and apprehension) which is added to a criminal record. An arrest comes with formal charges of a crime. An apprehension is based on warrants.To include records that go beyond the 2 in the government report is misleading.

The citizen study includes factors not in the report linked in Fox (it's a pfd). The study was self-reporting in part thus not a database study itself. There is no valid comparison to be made when the standards are different.

As per the Fox source the link goes to How Many Americans Have a Police Record? Probably More Than You Think

"A weakness of the study was that it projected what would happen in the future based on the assumption that conditions in 1965 would remain constant. In fact, much has changed.

“They didn’t arrest for drugs then,” Dr. Blumstein said. “DUI was a traffic offense. They didn’t arrest for domestic violence.”

A survey with flaws

"While Dr. Christensen’s work projected the chance of arrest over a lifetime, Dr. Brame and his colleagues documented what had already happened. They found that by age 23, approximately 30% of the survey participants had been arrested or taken into police custody for a non-traffic offense. The results were published in the journal Pediatrics.

But their study also had weaknesses: Some of the survey sample dropped out or never participated and, as with Dr. Christensen’s work, conditions that were present when the group was selected may no longer apply."

Arbitrarily cuts out 1/3

"The most recent report recorded more than 100 million arrest records, according to Becki R. Goggins, director of law and policy for the consortium, who notes the data include records for offenders who are deceased as well as multiple records for individuals who have been arrested in more than one state.

To account for these discrepancies, which could result in an overcount of the number of people with an arrest record, NELP subtracts about a third of the cases.

“We say 70 million,” said Maurice Emsellem, director of the Access and Opportunity Program at the NELP, an estimate that also works out to around 1 in 3 adults."

US Law. An apprehension requires a warrant for aliens

8 U.S. Code § 1226 - Apprehension and detention of aliens

One source from WSJ

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/12/14/peds.2010-3710

"METHODS: Self-reported arrest history data (excluding arrests for minor traffic violations) from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1997 (N = 7335) were examined from 1997 to 2008.

Another source https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/42.pdf

It does not cite the study with the 40% so there is nothing to verify. PDF page 251 book page 247


Fox is creating outrage media banking on people not looking at the methods. The counter-point about citizens is someone just using Google without reading anything they link. Especially when the source is behind a paywall not everyone can read.

My only question is if you have a subscription to WSJ. Do you?

I do not. Tried clicking on the WSJ link but stopped by the paywall.

I would be willing to bet that factoring out income levels and accounting for discrimination, it is likely that the criminal tendencies of immigrant populations in the US either are close to or less than that of the normal population. That's an educated guess given that data show no or reduced crime in populations with immigrants.

 

[Shad]

I do not. Tried clicking on the WSJ link but stopped by the paywall.

You shouldn't rely upon a headline to be the truth. See all my references. Those are all sources from the WSJ article. The comparison is flawed.

Also note that by US law juvenile records are sealed. This may not be the case with juvenile records in another nation. So a citizen could have been convicted of a crime as a youth while it is sealed as an adult. A DACA recipient may have an open record in nation of origin. The WSJ article included self-reports of juvenile records adding another criteria not present in the government report.

I would be willing to bet that factoring out income levels and accounting for discrimination, it is likely that the criminal tendencies of immigrant populations in the US either are close to or less than that of the normal population. That's an educated guess given that data show no or reduced crime in populations with immigrants.

Legal immigrants are vetted. Those with convictions are dropped first. Those with multiple arrests are next. Legal immigrants need pretty clean records to even get passed a basic background check. Illegals by definition have violated the law, 1 to 1 ratio at best. DACA is by definition acknowledge each applicant that is eligible can be deported by US law. It chooses not to; 1 to 1 ratio at best.

So if you are only taking about legal immigrants not illegals, refugees nor refugee claimants I agree. If not I disagree as it is tautology.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I wouldn't call it a reason even. There are differences in conduct here. A person could steal food to survive compared to someone that became a low level drug dealer. I would be more relaxed with food theft. I would throw the book at the dealer. Poverty is a factor but it is hardly the end all be all as there are personal choices involved.

Keep in mind reason in this context means cause. Poverty does not cause everyone to commit a crime nor the same crime. There is choice as a factor not to be ignored. Hence my example.

Reason does suggest cause, and it is important to understand it in relation to crime and a particular group, especially with a heightened sense of outrage and discrimination against that particular group. I applaud you for looking at individual cases, but that is not the point of the article and it is not what folks with anti-immigration sentiments will do.

Causes are never universal. I know old folks who have smoked like chimneys for years with seemingly little health problems. Doesn't mean smoking is healthy.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

You shouldn't rely upon a headline to be the truth.

I did not. I was pointing out an overlooked detail in the article contradicting the main point. My original point was to show there is more to the issue than "immagrants are criminals," which our back-and-forth shows.

 

[Shad]

Reason does suggest cause, and it is important to understand it in relation to crime and a particular group, especially with a heightened sense of outrage and discrimination against that particular group. I applaud you for looking at individual cases, but that is not the point of the article and it is not what folks with anti-immigration sentiments will do.

The article was outrage media. Standard Fox News. There are too many unknowns involved. We do not have individual records. State laws vary. Trump has control over DACA. He can call for a review if he wants to. I have a feeling I need to read up on the DACA case in SCOTUS. The Fox article seems like a smoke screen for the case.

Causes are never universal. I know old folks who have smoked like chimneys for years with seemingly little health problems. Doesn't mean smoking is healthy.

This isn't the same as taking an action when in poverty that cause harm to others in major ways.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The article was outrage media. Standard Fox News. There are too many unknowns involved. We do not have individual records. State laws vary. Trump has control over DACA. He can call for a review if he wants to. I have a feeling I need to read up on the DACA case in SCOTUS. The Fox article seems like a smoke screen for the case.

I would agree.

This isn't the same as taking an action when in poverty that cause harm to others in major ways.

Poor folks who cause harm absolutely should be held accountable for their actions. But our understanding of how poverty effects mental health and especially the trauma resulting from intergenerational poverty should be taken into account when we deal with crime. We know that when making decisions, poverty is one of the factors in crime, like smoking is one of the factors in health.

 

[metis]

Please believe you me, China is soon going to desperately want to do a fair trade deal in order to keep non-Chinese owned manufacturers from leaving their country.

What you are missing with the above is that a great many countries want to have more open trade with China because it is the fastest growing market worldwide. This is also why Trump's pulling us out of the TPP was such an idiotic move economically, which led to more countries increasing economic ties and trade with China versus us.

 

[Shad]

Poor folks who cause harm absolutely should be held accountable for their actions. But our understanding of how poverty effects mental health and especially the trauma resulting from intergenerational poverty should be taken into account when we deal with crime. We know that when making decisions, poverty is one of the factors in crime, like smoking is one of the factors in health.

For the US the problem isn't understanding but the funding and supporting people that has issues. Mental health is not treated the same as physical health issues by from the bottom to top.

 

[Salvador]

What you are missing with the above is that a great many countries want to have more open trade with China because it is the fastest growing market worldwide. This is also why Trump's pulling us out of the TPP was such an idiotic move economically, which led to more countries increasing economic ties and trade with China versus us.

Foreigners can't directly open a company in China. In order to do business in China, they must partner with a state-owned Chinese company who then steals the technology and trade secrets of non-Chinese owned companies.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?