80,000 immigrants. That's a big number.

[Shad]

And every one of them have criminal records. Rape, murder, assault...

Nearly 80,000 immigrants approved for DACA have arrest records, USCIS report finds | Fox News

No wall this time, they were approved by Obama's pet DACA program.

Nice job they are doing huh?

At least somebody caught this and called it out.


I wonder how many more criminals they had approved?

This is Trump's problem right now. Fire the incompetent bureaucrats and deport recipients that violated the agreement they signed via the DACA application.

 

[Salvador]

^Great posts.

Now, just for comparison, it would be nice to see the percentage of Trump's inner circle who have a criminal record.

A high percentage of Trump's inner circle may have done some petty crimes, but I'm unaware any of them are homicidal, albeit if Trump were to kill somebody, it'd likely be somebody whom Trump deserved to kill.

 

[Shad]

From the article:

"Supporters will also note that the level of arrests for DACA recipients is lower than the estimated 30 percent of U.S. adults who have an arrest record."

Nice job, immigrants!

As per the article. "Researchers who study the issue typically include anyone who has been arrested or taken into custody by police, regardless of whether the charges were ultimately dropped. By that definition, many people who have never been convicted of a crime have a criminal history."

It is also a survey. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/12/14/peds.2010-3710?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

There are also issues of records being purge at adulthood for crimes committed before adulthood

Fox is using convictions. The 30% is using the general record not only convictions . If I am detain it goes on my record regardless even if I am not convicted of a crime

 

[sun rise]

albeit if Trump were to kill somebody, it'd likely be somebody whom Trump deserved to kill.

Nothing like asserting murder in the 1st degree is justified if he says it is. That's exactly why the right must be smashed into little pieces and the right-wing criminals locked up.

 

[metis]

And that's how it's done. Lump all together, make an assumption that can be used to disparage them all, and voila!

The reality that we've seen so many times here at RF is that many on the right use stereotypes a great deal, and yet we as responsible parents tell our children not to do that. But then, look at what Trump does, thus the right's President Bone-Spurs sets their agenda.

 

[metis]

When a Trump support rants & raves against "socialist Democrats", they definitely are missing an oar, because look at what Trump has done to placate the farmers by spending billions of taxpayer's money in order to pay them off because of their being financially hurt by Trump's tariffs and China's response to stop importing certain crops from the U.S.

 

[Salvador]

The reality that we've seen so many times here at RF is that many on the right use stereotypes a great deal, and yet we as responsible parents tell our children not to do that. But then, look at what Trump does, thus the right's President Bone-Spurs sets their agenda.

Our P.O.T.U.S.'s agenda of infrastructure improvements, reduced pharmaceutical drug prices, and the U.S.M.C.A. trade agreement are getting derailed by the Democratic socialist impeachment coup attempt against President Trump.

 

[Salvador]

When a Trump support rants & raves against "socialist Democrats", they definitely are missing an oar, because look at what Trump has done to placate the farmers by spending billions of taxpayer's money in order to pay them off because of their being financially hurt by Trump's tariffs and China's response to stop importing certain crops from the U.S.

Tariffs are needed in order to pressure the unfair Chinese trade practitioners into doing fair and balanced trade between the U.S. and China, these tariffs against China are making billions of dollars for the U.S. treasury who can in turn help the farmers who've lost income from reduced agriculture export sales to China.

 

[metis]

Our P.O.T.U.S.'s agenda of infrastructure improvements, reduced pharmaceutical drug prices, and the U.S.M.C.A. trade agreement are getting derailed by the Democratic socialist impeachment coup attempt against President Trump.

Maybe do the homework, as I have no want of wasting my time with the above. Maybe make Google your BFF.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

As per the article. "Researchers who study the issue typically include anyone who has been arrested or taken into custody by police, regardless of whether the charges were ultimately dropped. By that definition, many people who have never been convicted of a crime have a criminal history."

It is also a survey. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/12/14/peds.2010-3710?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

There are also issues of records being purge at adulthood for crimes committed before adulthood

Fox is using convictions. The 30% is using the general record not only convictions . If I am detain it goes on my record regardless even if I am not convicted of a crime

I didn't notice your quote in the article. There was this, showing Fox was not using data showing just convictions.

"The data released Saturday by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) shows only arrests or apprehensions for a criminal offense or an immigration-related civil offense and does not take into account whether there was a conviction, acquittal, dismissal or a lessening of charges."

 

[metis]

Tariffs are needed in order to pressure the unfair Chinese trade practitioners into doing fair and balanced trade between the U.S. and China, these tariffs against China are making billions of dollars for the U.S. treasury who can in turn help the farmers who've lost income from reduced agriculture export sales to China.

If one bothered to actually study economics, they would well know that tariffs are paid for by the consumer, not the country.

Now what China has done was to make agreements with several South American countries and companies to buy more of their produce, which will have the effect of we losing them as importers of American foodstuffs for probably decades or more.

Play it as they will, the reality is that this administration's paying farmers because of lost revenue is "socialism" in spades, and certainly a far cry from the "conservatism" that the Pubs and some here claim they are.

 

[Salvador]

Maybe do the homework, as I have no want of wasting my time with the above. Maybe make Google your BFF.

Unfortunately, google search results are biased in favor of socialist Democrats over us right-wing populist American nationalists. ....

Research: Google Search Bias Flipped Seats for Democrats in Midterms | Breitbart

 

[metis]

Unfortunately, google search results are biased in favor of socialist Democrats over us right-wing populist American nationalists. ....

Research: Google Search Bias Flipped Seats for Democrats in Midterms | Breitbart

Maybe it's not "biased" at all, and then you have the audacity to post a link to Breitbart! Too funny!!!

Anyhow, gotta go for the day.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I'd generally agree with those generalizations.
However these DACA migrants actually have a lower rate of arrest records than is typical in the US adult population, so i'm not sure that'd be the case here.

Right, but I'd still be curious since the comparison between the typical US population and those applying for DACA may suggest commonalities even with lower rates.

 

[Salvador]

If one bothered to actually study economics, they would well know that tariffs are paid for by the consumer, not the country.

Now what China has done was to make agreements with several South American countries and companies to buy more of their produce, which will have the effect of we losing them as importers of American foodstuffs for probably decades or more.

Play it as they will, the reality is that this administration's paying farmers because of lost revenue is "socialism" in spades, and certainly a far cry from the "conservatism" that the Pubs and some here claim they are.

Please believe you me, China is soon going to desperately want to do a fair trade deal in order to keep non-Chinese owned manufacturers from leaving their country.

 

[Stanyon]

He knows the xenophobia is there, he's just doing his regular routine where he tries to present his views as respectable in some way.

You were referring to me so:

What part of this do you disagree with?

I wasn't implying anything, I specifically stated if I don't know someone or know a little of their background I am not inviting them into my home no matter what.

 

[Shad]

I didn't notice your quote in the article. There was this, showing Fox was not using data showing just convictions.

"The data released Saturday by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) shows only arrests or apprehensions for a criminal offense or an immigration-related civil offense and does not take into account whether there was a conviction, acquittal, dismissal or a lessening of charges."

My mistake.

A modification of my point still stands. This report and the one about citizens is using different standards thus are not comparable. An arrest and apprehension is different from having a criminal record itself. The former is part of a criminal record but not the sole determination nor criteria of the criminal record. One can be detained (different from an arrest and apprehension) which is added to a criminal record. An arrest comes with formal charges of a crime. An apprehension is based on warrants.To include records that go beyond the 2 in the government report is misleading.

The citizen study includes factors not in the report linked in Fox (it's a pfd). The study was self-reporting in part thus not a database study itself. There is no valid comparison to be made when the standards are different.

As per the Fox source the link goes to How Many Americans Have a Police Record? Probably More Than You Think

"A weakness of the study was that it projected what would happen in the future based on the assumption that conditions in 1965 would remain constant. In fact, much has changed.

“They didn’t arrest for drugs then,” Dr. Blumstein said. “DUI was a traffic offense. They didn’t arrest for domestic violence.”

A survey with flaws

"While Dr. Christensen’s work projected the chance of arrest over a lifetime, Dr. Brame and his colleagues documented what had already happened. They found that by age 23, approximately 30% of the survey participants had been arrested or taken into police custody for a non-traffic offense. The results were published in the journal Pediatrics.

But their study also had weaknesses: Some of the survey sample dropped out or never participated and, as with Dr. Christensen’s work, conditions that were present when the group was selected may no longer apply."

Arbitrarily cuts out 1/3

"The most recent report recorded more than 100 million arrest records, according to Becki R. Goggins, director of law and policy for the consortium, who notes the data include records for offenders who are deceased as well as multiple records for individuals who have been arrested in more than one state.

To account for these discrepancies, which could result in an overcount of the number of people with an arrest record, NELP subtracts about a third of the cases.

“We say 70 million,” said Maurice Emsellem, director of the Access and Opportunity Program at the NELP, an estimate that also works out to around 1 in 3 adults."

US Law. An apprehension requires a warrant for aliens

8 U.S. Code § 1226 - Apprehension and detention of aliens

One source from WSJ

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/12/14/peds.2010-3710

"METHODS: Self-reported arrest history data (excluding arrests for minor traffic violations) from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1997 (N = 7335) were examined from 1997 to 2008.

Another source https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/42.pdf

It does not cite the study with the 40% so there is nothing to verify. PDF page 251 book page 247


Fox is creating outrage media banking on people not looking at the methods. The counter-point about citizens is someone just using Google without reading anything they link. Especially when the source is behind a paywall not everyone can read.

My only question is if you have a subscription to WSJ. Do you?

 

[Shad]

I'd be curious on how many of the offenses being quoted in this thread are related to living in poverty and how that relates to the rest of the population. Crimes such as murder and theft tend to be more prevalently attached to poverty, either due to wealthier folks being able to get away with it due to having the means or it being done in more discreet ways like white collar crimes, or the simple fact it is easier to not kill or steal when you are secure in your home and means.

I have little doubt some are. That does not excuse any crime nor provide a get out of deportation card.

DACA policy has a max limit of 1 serious misdemeanor or 1 felony, or 3 misdemeanors.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I have little doubt some are. That does not excuse any crime nor provide a get out of deportation card.

DACA policy has a max limit of 1 serious misdemeanor or 1 felony, or 3 misdemeanors.

Nope. But it does offer a reason, if not an excuse. It provides further insight into the dimensions of human behavior. It also humanizes the immigrants and shows they are not merely criminals, which is a view the posted article is attempting to portray.

Since the article is dealing with DACA applicants, it means they will not be eligible.

 

[Shad]

Nope. But it does offer a reason, if not an excuse.

I wouldn't call it a reason even. There are differences in conduct here. A person could steal food to survive compared to someone that became a low level drug dealer. I would be more relaxed with food theft. I would throw the book at the dealer. Poverty is a factor but it is hardly the end all be all as there are personal choices involved.

Keep in mind reason in this context means cause. Poverty does not cause everyone to commit a crime nor the same crime. There is choice as a factor not to be ignored. Hence my example.

It provides further insight into the dimensions of human behavior. It also humanizes the immigrants and shows they are not merely criminals, which is a view the posted article is attempting to portray.

It is vagary trying to masquerading as a point. You need to look at the specific individuals along with their cases not a generalization. I can have sympathy for the parent stealing food for their child. I have none of the drug dealer.

Since the article is dealing with DACA applicants, it means they will not be eligible.

The only issue is that minor misdemeanors are different from state to state. An individual could have be convicted of misdemeanors in one state which do not exist as misdemeanors in another state. Traffic violations are a common example in which there are differences. There needs to be a federal standard which overrides state law for there to be consistency in this matter.