5 Planes of Existence

[Heyo]

(Trigger warning: this is going to be a long and philosophical OP. If you are bored by this stuff, this OP is not for you.)

Does god exist? That question is currently unanswerable and will probably remain so for a long time or even never be answerable due to a lack of an agreed upon definition of "god". But what about the definition of "existence"? I want to suggest a classification of 5 planes of existence that make it easier to talk about existence.

1. Reality

Real are all those things that can be measured with a scientific instrument, repeatedly, objective and independent. Particles, forces and fields are real (and nothing else is). Reality is the subject of the "hard" sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.​

2. The plane of numbers and forms a.k.a. the plane of ideals

This is taken from Plato's idea of ideals. But other than Plato, I don't call them "real". These are things that must exist by necessity. They are found by sapient beings, not constructed. Mathematicians and philosophers deal with ideals.​

3. Constructs

Things that exist only by consensus, like laws, nations or borders. This is the domain of lawyers, politicians and the "soft" sciences like sociology.​

4. Fantasies a.k.a. Fiction

Fantasies are shared ideas of the unreal. We accept that they are not real but we can talk about them as if they were real. We say that Dumbledore exists in the Harry Potter "universe". This is the realm of literature and lore.​

5. Illusions

The most unreal and hardly existing things are illusions. These are the things that exist only through a skewed perception like dreams and hallucinations. Unfortunately some people take them for real. When that happens, this is the problem of psychology.​

Not a thing

The English language allows us to substantivise verbs and adjectives. That creates artificial, only grammatical "things" that aren't. That's why I reject the idea to include a plane for emotions. Love is not a thing, it is something we do.​

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

(Trigger warning: this is going to be a long and philosophical OP. If you are bored by this stuff, this OP is not for you.)

Does god exist? That question is currently unanswerable and will probably remain so for a long time or even never be answerable due to a lack of an agreed upon definition of "god". But what about the definition of "existence"? I want to suggest a classification of 5 planes of existence that make it easier to talk about existence.

1. Reality

Real are all those things that can be measured with a scientific instrument, repeatedly, objective and independent. Particles, forces and fields are real (and nothing else is). Reality is the subject of the "hard" sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.​

2. The plane of numbers and forms a.k.a. the plane of ideals

This is taken from Plato's idea of ideals. But other than Plato, I don't call them "real". These are things that must exist by necessity. They are found by sapient beings, not constructed. Mathematicians and philosophers deal with ideals.​

3. Constructs

Things that exist only by consensus, like laws, nations or borders. This is the domain of lawyers, politicians and the "soft" sciences like sociology.​

4. Fantasies a.k.a. Fiction

Fantasies are shared ideas of the unreal. We accept that they are not real but we can talk about them as if they were real. We say that Dumbledore exists in the Harry Potter "universe". This is the realm of literature and lore.​

5. Illusions

The most unreal and hardly existing things are illusions. These are the things that exist only through a skewed perception like dreams and hallucinations. Unfortunately some people take them for real. When that happens, this is the problem of psychology.​

Not a thing

The English language allows us to substantivise verbs and adjectives. That creates artificial, only grammatical "things" that aren't. That's why I reject the idea to include a plane for emotions. Love is not a thing, it is something we do.​

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

Yeah, I wouldn't do it exactly that way, but yours are close enough to mine, that they mostly overlap.

 

[Terry Sampson]

1. But what about the definition of "existence"?
   
2. I want to suggest a classification of 5 planes of existence that make it easier to talk about existence.
3. What do you think?
4. Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

re: #3. Unfortunately, I can't say what I really think because a Moderator would be all over my response like a fly on sugar, but I'll try to work around the Forum rules hurdle, so here goes:
Is there any chance that you're friggin' nuts??? LOL!
re: #4. Not a chance outside of your dreams.
re: #2. Your suggestion is duly noted for the record and authorities will soon be arriving at your door. Just leave it unlocked and open, lay face down on the floor with your arms out, and when they arrive, just holler and let them know which room you're in. And don't make any resisting movements while they put the straight-jacket on you.
re: #1. Nice try, but it still needs a lot of work.

Seriously, though, .... gimme a while to see if I can respond coherently and intelligibly. My medications are still wearing off and I'm not expecting the nurse in with a new round of them for a couple of hours.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

(Trigger warning: this is going to be a long and philosophical OP. If you are bored by this stuff, this OP is not for you.)

Does god exist? That question is currently unanswerable and will probably remain so for a long time or even never be answerable due to a lack of an agreed upon definition of "god". But what about the definition of "existence"? I want to suggest a classification of 5 planes of existence that make it easier to talk about existence.

1. Reality

Real are all those things that can be measured with a scientific instrument, repeatedly, objective and independent. Particles, forces and fields are real (and nothing else is). Reality is the subject of the "hard" sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.​

2. The plane of numbers and forms a.k.a. the plane of ideals

This is taken from Plato's idea of ideals. But other than Plato, I don't call them "real". These are things that must exist by necessity. They are found by sapient beings, not constructed. Mathematicians and philosophers deal with ideals.​

3. Constructs

Things that exist only by consensus, like laws, nations or borders. This is the domain of lawyers, politicians and the "soft" sciences like sociology.​

4. Fantasies a.k.a. Fiction

Fantasies are shared ideas of the unreal. We accept that they are not real but we can talk about them as if they were real. We say that Dumbledore exists in the Harry Potter "universe". This is the realm of literature and lore.​

5. Illusions

The most unreal and hardly existing things are illusions. These are the things that exist only through a skewed perception like dreams and hallucinations. Unfortunately some people take them for real. When that happens, this is the problem of psychology.​

Not a thing

The English language allows us to substantivise verbs and adjectives. That creates artificial, only grammatical "things" that aren't. That's why I reject the idea to include a plane for emotions. Love is not a thing, it is something we do.​

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

Hmmm. Five ways of talking about our experiences?

Our thoughts and words, and even our experiences and our memories--even of those things that fall into your first realm of 'reality'--are only maps of the territory, not the actual territory itself...

Consider also: the only way we can "know" reality is by applying the concepts/knowledge of the "ideal" plane to our experiences. If the inhabitants of the Ideal are not real, then they must be maps derived from Reality...used to explain the map of Reality...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Here are mine:
I don't believe in existence. I believe in experiences.

• External experiences. The physical and all that.
• The logic and math. That which makes rationally and abstractly sense.
• The intersubjective. That which I experience externally as other minds and how we interact, including their feelings as their subjectivity.
• The subjective. My feelings.
• Imagination. I learned that one from you.
• Objective reality, What it all is independently of my experiences. That is where God belongs along with objective reality as philosophical naturalism and the rest of metaphysics and ontology.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[sun rise]

The phrase "planes of existence" has a common, if esoteric, meaning Plane (esotericism) - Wikipedia Rather I'd personally use "frames-of-reference" or some other phrase.

But other than that, I could see that the OP could be useful in some situations.

 

[Heyo]

Hmmm. Five ways of talking about our experiences?

Our thoughts and words, and even our experiences and our memories--even of those things that fall into your first realm of 'reality'--are only maps of the territory, not the actual territory itself...

Consider also: the only way we can "know" reality is by applying the concepts/knowledge of the "ideal" plane to our experiences. If the inhabitants of the Ideal are not real, then they must be maps derived from Reality...used to explain the map of Reality...

Our perception of reality is not reality, it's a map into reality but the ideal is an abstract painting of reality.

 

[Heyo]

The phrase "planes of existence" has a common, if esoteric, meaning Plane (esotericism) - Wikipedia Rather I'd personally use "frames-of-reference" or some other phrase.

But other than that, I could see that the OP could be useful in some situations.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that usage. I took it from (a translation of) Plato's "plane of Ideals", sometimes also called "realm of Ideals". I'd also be happy with "domain" or "category", I don't cling to the word.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Our perception of reality is not reality, it's a map into reality

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with Alfred Korzybski and/or General Semantics?
Alfred Korzybski - Wikipedia
General semantics - Wikipedia

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Our perception of reality is not reality, it's a map into reality but the ideal is an abstract painting of reality.

I like that very, very much. I may have to steal that for later use

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

I think we are yet to consider many things and we will be amazed when we finally open our minds to all possibilities.

Your 5 planes of existence reminded me of a Tablet I have heard of and briefly read about 5 Realms of Divine Existence, as described in the Tablet of All Food by Baha'u'llah.

Háhút
Láhút
Jabarút
Malakút
Násút

I will. Come back and put in founder each one.

RegardsTony

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with Alfred Korzybski and/or General Semantics?
Alfred Korzybski - Wikipedia
General semantics - Wikipedia

First encountered General Semantics in high school...an English teacher had that as a course topic...has been influential in my thinking since...

 

[Heyo]

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with Alfred Korzybski and/or General Semantics?
Alfred Korzybski - Wikipedia
General semantics - Wikipedia

No, but the name rings a bell. He may have been mentioned in an other discussion. Iirc he also has a categorization of being that includes emotions, which I reject for reasons given in the OP (Not a thing).

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

From wikipedia:

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

(Trigger warning: this is going to be a long and philosophical OP. If you are bored by this stuff, this OP is not for you.)

Does god exist? That question is currently unanswerable and will probably remain so for a long time or even never be answerable due to a lack of an agreed upon definition of "god". But what about the definition of "existence"? I want to suggest a classification of 5 planes of existence that make it easier to talk about existence.

1. Reality

Real are all those things that can be measured with a scientific instrument, repeatedly, objective and independent. Particles, forces and fields are real (and nothing else is). Reality is the subject of the "hard" sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.​

2. The plane of numbers and forms a.k.a. the plane of ideals

This is taken from Plato's idea of ideals. But other than Plato, I don't call them "real". These are things that must exist by necessity. They are found by sapient beings, not constructed. Mathematicians and philosophers deal with ideals.​

3. Constructs

Things that exist only by consensus, like laws, nations or borders. This is the domain of lawyers, politicians and the "soft" sciences like sociology.​

4. Fantasies a.k.a. Fiction

Fantasies are shared ideas of the unreal. We accept that they are not real but we can talk about them as if they were real. We say that Dumbledore exists in the Harry Potter "universe". This is the realm of literature and lore.​

5. Illusions

The most unreal and hardly existing things are illusions. These are the things that exist only through a skewed perception like dreams and hallucinations. Unfortunately some people take them for real. When that happens, this is the problem of psychology.​

Not a thing

The English language allows us to substantivise verbs and adjectives. That creates artificial, only grammatical "things" that aren't. That's why I reject the idea to include a plane for emotions. Love is not a thing, it is something we do.​

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

Well, you're about 7 planes short.....and the ones you list are not the first 5.

 

[Heyo]

Well, you're about 7 planes short.....and the ones you list are not the first 5.

So, what is your model (or the one you favour)? And why is it better than mine?

 

[Terry Sampson]

First encountered General Semantics in high school

High School? How old are you, kid? I took my first and only course in GS back in the spring or fall of 1974, at San Francisco State University, when S.I. Hayakawa (the "Shining Public Face" of GS) was the university president. I've grown old, but a couple of things still stick in my mind:

• "The map is not the territory" - non-identity premise. Reality, or that portion of what we abstract from it, is not what we say it is.
• "The map is not all of the territory - non-allness premise. What we abstract from reality is far less than the reality from which we abstracted, and what we say about what we abstracted is not all than could be said, even if we had words to describe the abstraction.
• "Maps can be self-reflexive" - self-reflection premise. We can say things about things that we say about things.

Or something like that. At the time, the stuff I learn expanded my brain more than any drug I ever consumed. Ahhh, those were the days ...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think we are yet to consider many things and we will be amazed when we finally open our minds to all possibilities.

Your 5 planes of existence reminded me of a Tablet I have heard of and briefly read about 5 Realms of Divine Existence, as described in the Tablet of All Food by Baha'u'llah.

Háhút
Láhút
Jabarút
Malakút
Násút

I will. Come back and put in founder each one.RegardsTony

This is the details

Realm Descriptions Stages of creation (arc of descent)

Háhút

• The essence of God unmanifested.
• The 'Hidden Mystery' or the 'Hidden Treasure', the Absolute Unknown, the Primal Oneness.

Láhút

• The All-Glorious Horizon, the Heavenly Court, the Throne of God.
• The names and attributes of God are manifested.
• The station of pure abstraction and essential unity.
• The Holy Spirit, the Word of God (Logos), the First Intellect, the Divine Will.
• The Universal Manifestation of God, Burning Bush, the speaker on Sinai, the Ancient Beauty, the Divine Lote Tree, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Most Exalted Pen, the Tongue of Grandeur, the Lord of Lords, the Primal Will, the First Intelligence.
• The Divine Dove, the Angel Gabriel, the Maid of Heaven, the Mystical Nightingale.

• Will (mashiyyat)

• Snow-White

Jabarút

• The all-highest Paradise.
• The realm of Command or Decree.
• The station of distinction: the Manifestations of God (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb and Baháʼu'lláh) acquire individual existences and become channels of the divine will.
• The Mother Book (eternal spiritual laws), the Preserved Tablet (divine decrees, knowledge of past and future) and the divine Pen.

• Purpose, Determination (iradah)

• Yellow (golden)

Malakút

• The All-glorious Paradise, Abhá Kingdom
• The angelic realm, the world of souls.
• Includes the Concourse on High (the souls of prophets, martyrs and saints).

• Predestination (qadar)

• Green

Násút

• The physical world, subdivided into the human, animal, vegetable and mineral kingdoms.

• Fate, decree (qada)
• Implementation
• Destiny
• Record

• Crimson

It is written there are many more Realms (or Worlds of God), but these are the realms of existence we see at play in this creation.

Regards Tony

 

[Heyo]

"The map is not the territory"

An important realization - but irrelevant as it only deals with our perception of existence, not with existence itself.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What do you think? Would that make the discussion of the existence of gods and other things easier?

Another way to see this is that the spirit is universally divided into five categories and if we list them in the arc of assent from the lower world to the higher world, they are the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

Great subject Heyo, Regards Tony