3 steps to enlightenment

[Almustafa]

these are the three steps(in my understanding) of enlightenment
first we must set up something before we knock it down...

so the first step is surrender
next realisation
then finally coping/balance

we give our selves a spiritual platform to jump from, this is called a Dogma(careful strong dogmas can be dangerous) they hepl us preserve the essence of the teaching so it can be passed on orally... the subject surrenders to this Dogma, it becomes their identity.

then the person starts to unravel, to deconstruct their personality, they start to forget the dogma & with it their identity, they fall into Non-duality, they realize the Non-dual eternal truth, they may give it a name(like God, Brahman or the Tao) but it is nameless.. this is their moment of triumph, when they disappear into the boundless ocean of our Mother...

After the enlightenment experience, the subject dwells in nirvana, the infinite sameness of eternity... they to verying degrees go crazy... sometimes they can hardly function while emmersed in this non-dual bliss-truth-existence substance...
one with everything...

after so long the being begins to balance the relative with the absolute & sees the many in the one, learning to function in the world while abideing in Nirvana..
these people become what we call saints

the Steps are as follows;
step#1
Dogma; Monism
the first step they learn to identify everything with the Monad, the one is everything... "anthing else is just foolish" so says this neophyte
they exist as one particle of the whole, they meditate to silence the mind & just be one with it all, they often will try to teach everybody they know "The Way" because this is the truth....

step#2
experience;Non-duality
at some point the monist after meditating long enough will forget all names & forms... they will "Fall" into Non-duality, they realize without a doubt the non-dual existence, they cease to emperically exist & exist as some sort of "nameless God" totally one with the entire universe & beyond...
appearing to go "crazy" they will disregard job, family, hygene, eating, drinking, & pretty much anything...

Step#3
balance; Anamism
After the God-man regains his wits & reason about him, the being lives in a state of anamistic realization... duality once again appears but everything is "you" every& thing has spirit... people,plants & animals all appear to be your reflection, yopu from another perspective...
from this point on this spirit man lives as a jiva-mukta(liberated during life) the mind thinks, gets angry,excited, happy, rushed, etc... but there is no identification with it, its just happening, you are just watching...
Mr. king of the universe behind everyones eyes, the person looking out...


a zen master once said
"before enlightenment trees are trees..
during enlightenment, trees are not trees...
after enlightenment, trees are once again trees..."

 

[Aupmanyav]

so the first step is surrender

Surrender what? Surrender to whom? Could you be clearer in what you write.

 

[Kirran]

Do you think it matters to what you're surrendering? Or is it the act of surrender to something greater than yourself which is, in itself, a necessary step for breaking down your identification as something separate to the rest of existence?

 

[Valjean]

This seems way too complicated. First, what degree of enlightenment are you talking about? People us the term to mean everything from generally hip to a monistic unity with the Universe.

Assuming you're talking about expansion of consciousness, people have been known to slip into it entirely inadvertently, with no yogic technique at all. Sometimes left temporal seizures just happen.

Alteration of consciousness is a little studied field. We don't even understand ordinary, 3rd state consciousness, but to fall back on religious mumbo-jumbo doesn't strike me as particularly fruitful.

 

[Kirran]

This seems way too complicated.

Assuming the OP is talking about enlightenment as being a movement of personal identification from the individual to the universe (probably rather unclearly phrased), I think it's a bit of a misconception that the process of doing it is, or should be, simple. Yeah, Ramana Maharishi basically just achieved it like that, but that kind of thing is crazy rare. Usually it takes a lengthy process of training the mind and opening yourself up etc.

It tends to take staged processes etc, as described here, and some people achieve enlightenment with far more guidelines (or a more substantial dogma) than are shown here. It's alright to have some complexity, and often very helpful, although you are using complexity to overcome complexity, in a way.

 

[YmirGF]

It tends to take staged processes etc, as described here, and some people achieve enlightenment with far more guidelines (or a more substantial dogma) than are shown here. It's alright to have some complexity, and often very helpful, although you are using complexity to overcome complexity, in a way.

Can you name three people, living today, who are enlightened? If you can't, I'm inclined to say that there is something amiss in the recipe provided.

 

[Kirran]

Can you name three people, living today, who are enlightened? If you can't, I'm inclined to say that there is something amiss in the recipe provided.

I'll freely admit that no, I can't. So I can't back up my opinions here.

But I still think that there are a number of people alive today who are enlightened, as that makes sense to me, and I think that many people who achieve enlightenment do so with the aid of various 'structures'. This is not to say that there is some correct structure. I believe people have attained enlightenment with roots in traditions such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam etc. Just because these strains of thought are present in all these faiths.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Can you name three people, living today, who are enlightened?

Even if we could it just raises more questions. How can you you tell if somebody is enlightened, how would you know? How would they know? What exactly is enlightenment? It's thought about in so many different ways that it's almost meaningless as a description. How do you distinguish enlightenment from altered states of consciousness, or even just from delusions of grandeur? And so on.

 

[Kirran]

The English word enlightenment is trying to translate a variety of concepts found in various spiritualities, with varying levels of equivalence. E.g. kaivalya, nirvana, samadhi, fana. So it's finding the common ground within most of these that helps us define what we mean by enlightenment.

Plenty of people may think they're enlightened and not be as well, or say they are, and not be.

 

[YmirGF]

The English word enlightenment is trying to translate a variety of concepts found in various spiritualities, with varying levels of equivalence. E.g. kaivalya, nirvana, samadhi, fana. So it's finding the common ground within most of these that helps us define what we mean by enlightenment.

Plenty of people may think they're enlightened and not be as well, or say they are, and not be.

There is a thread buried here on RF where people were asked to say who they thought was enlightened. I got a real chuckle out of the opinion of one writer who suggested that Oprah was an example of an enlightened being.

 

[Kirran]

There is a thread buried here on RF where people were asked to say who they thought was enlightened. I got a real chuckle out of the opinion of one writer who suggested that Oprah was an example of an enlightened being.

Who knows, maybe she is Can't say I've met her.

I may go hunt that thread down at some point, it sounds interesting.

 

[Valjean]

When "persons of expanded consciousness" look just like us ordinary schlubs, don't float in the air or cure lepers, it's pretty hard to identify them.

We don't have the comprehensive data base of comparative brain scans, biochemical markers, psych profiles, &c, that we'd need to even begin to study this phenomenon.
Till we begin approaching this scientifically it's going to remain the purview of shamans and Swamis.

Neurochemistry is to religion as chemistry is to alchemy. If we want to get somewhere with this enlightenment thing we need to drop the mumbo-jumbo and approach it scientifically.

 

[Kirran]

When "persons of expanded consciousness" look just like us ordinary schlubs, don't float in the air or cure lepers, it's pretty hard to identify them.

We don't have the comprehensive data base of comparative brain scans, biochemical markers, psych profiles, &c, that we'd need to even begin to study this phenomenon.
Till we begin approaching this scientifically it's going to remain the purview of shamans and Swamis.

Neurochemistry is to religion as chemistry is to alchemy. If we want to get somewhere with this enlightenment thing we need to drop the mumbo-jumbo and approach it scientifically.

Will that help people attain greater happiness?

If not, what's the utility?

Although personally I think it will help, so we could start fund-raising for this

 

[Valjean]

Kirran:
If not, what's the utility?

I'm reminded of the "electricity" entry in the first edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica: (paraphrased) "unlikely to be of any practical utility."

 

[YmirGF]

Will that help people attain greater happiness?

I think it would, yes, because science would help winnow out the wheat from the chaff, which would help the average human animal tremendously in deciding who and what to listen to.

If not, what's the utility?

Demystifying mysticism (removing the mumbo-jumbo) might be one of the greatest accomplishments that human animals ever make, thereby making formerly mystical states available to the average Joe/Josephine.

Although personally I think it will help, so we could start fund-raising for this

Convince a Bill Gates or a Warren Buffet and the money would flow like water...

 

[Kirran]

How much does a comprehensive brain scan cost?

 

[Valjean]

How much does a comprehensive brain scan cost?

Where? and what constitutes "comprehensive?"
In the US -- ~Ten thousand dollars. Taiwan: couple hundred dollars.

 

[Kirran]

Well, I'm just thinking through the practicalities of such a project. Where would be the best place to base it? Somewhere with more possibly enlightened people? Or with the best facilities?

 

[Joshua Pryce]

a zen master once said
"before enlightenment trees are trees..
during enlightenment, trees are not trees...
after enlightenment, trees are once again trees..."

That zen master is leading people astray. If trees are trees after enlightenment then what was the spiritual process in-between. It held no effect. Here the Christian version.
Bushes become trees and trees become forests after enlightenment. Spiritual growth draws out new perspective and higher results. The mind is meant to be spiritually tuned. Spiritual tuning comes from connecting to God, the supreme being Who transcend reality and would have to to be able to cause people to spiritually grow.

 

[Vinayaka]

That zen master is leading people astray. If trees are trees after enlightenment then what was the spiritual process in-between. It held no effect. Here the Christian version.
Bushes become trees and trees become forests after enlightenment. Spiritual growth draws out new perspective and higher results. The mind is meant to be spiritually tuned. Spiritual tuning comes from connecting to God, the supreme being Who transcend reality and would have to to be able to cause people to spiritually grow.

You do realise you're responding to very old threads, no? Many of the folks have long since stopped posting on RF, so I hope you aren't looking for a response.