2nd-hand petrol/diesel cars vs hybrid/electric

[Yerda]

If I go out and buy a new electric vehicle to replace my petrol car will the reduction of emissions over the lifetime of the new car be greater than the emissions produced in manufacturing said vehicle?

 

[Revoltingest]

Some resources...
The Carbon Footprint Of Electric Cars Vs Gasoline | Whole People
Electric car emissions myth 'busted'
Electric cars need to be driven 50,000 miles to match carbon footprint of a petrol car, research claims – Car Dealer Magazine

I see electric cars as being best for short trips.
IC engines are at their worst in efficiency & emissions
during their warm-up period. Short trips are also hard
on engine & exhaust system life.
For my situation, I like hybrids...very short trips can be all
electric. But longer trips benefit from good fuel economy
because of a smaller engine & regenerative braking.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Many think electric is green or energy or comes from a renewable source. It's not. Less than 20% of the electricity used in the US comes from renewable sources, and 60% comes from fossil fuels, almost 20% of that being coal.

1Utility-scale electricity generation is electricity generation from power plants with at least one megawatt (or 1,000 kilowatts) of total electricity generating capacity. Data are for net electricity generation.
2 Small-scale solar photovoltaic (PV) systems are electricity generators with less than one megawatt (MW) of electricity generating capacity, which are not connected at a power plant that has a combined capacity of one MW or larger. Most small-scale PV systems are at or near the location where the electricity is consumed and many are net metered systems. The smaller ones are usually installed on building rooftops.
3 Pumped storage hydroelectricity generation is negative because most pumped storage electricity generation facilities use more electricity than they produce on an annual basis. Most pumped storage systems use fossil fuels or nuclear energy for pumping water to the storage component of the system.
4 Other sources includes non-biogenic municipal solid waste, batteries, hydrogen, purchased steam, sulfur, tire-derived fuel, and other miscellaneous energy sources.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)​

Plus there is the carbon footprint that comes from battery disposal.

These are important to bear in mind when considering the purchase of an electric vehicle.

 

[Secret Chief]

If I go out and buy a new electric vehicle to replace my petrol car will the reduction of emissions over the lifetime of the new car be greater than the emissions produced in manufacturing said vehicle?

In the UK certainly, because there's so few charging points you'll be going nowhere.

 

[Revoltingest]

The emissions issue is complex....
Smokestack vs. Tailpipe: How Clean Are Electric Vehicles?

I take the simple approach....
- Drive as little as possible to accomplish one's goals.
- Carpool as much as practical.
- Drive the most fuel efficient vehicle practical.

These things won't solve any problems.
I just try to mitigate problems.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If I go out and buy a new electric vehicle to replace my petrol car will the reduction of emissions over the lifetime of the new car be greater than the emissions produced in manufacturing said vehicle?

I'd compare it in terms of hazards.

Think about the battery. Electric car chemical fires are a huge issue including the chemicals such things will release in the air, the issue of disposal and of course, the prohibitively huge price tag involved with powering these things and the manufacture and storing of massive quantities of chemicals that could havevan impact far worse in its own way.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd compare it in terms of hazards.

Think about the battery. Electric car chemical fires are a huge issue including the chemicals such things will release in the air, the issue of disposal and of course, the prohibitively huge price tag involved with powering these things and the manufacture and storing of massive quantities of chemicals that could havevan impact far worse in its own way.

That wasn't a comparison.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I'd compare it in terms of hazards.

Think about the battery. Electric car chemical fires are a huge issue including the chemicals such things will release in the air, the issue of disposal and of course, the prohibitively huge price tag involved with powering these things and the manufacture and storing of massive quantities of chemicals that could havevan impact far worse in its own way.

Because petrol cars don't produce chemicals and such things when they burn? Petroleum isn't flammable?

I've seen maybe around 20 or so cars burned to the ground on the roadside in my lifetime. Not one of them was electric or hybrid.

I find this argument against electric cars to be a bit silly. Do you have any data on what percentage of electric cars have fires vs petrol ones to support this?

 

[exchemist]

In the UK certainly, because there's so few charging points you'll be going nowhere.

Not sure that is true. I recently drove from London to St Andrews and back, to drop my son off at university, and I noticed charging points just about everywhere we stopped, apart from Highland villages. (There were none on Tiree, strangely) All the motorway service stations have them. I'm hoping to get an electric car next (my car is 12 years old now, though lowish mileage). I think there is a good chance that if I can nurse the old one for another 18 months or so, an electric car should be feasible.

 

[Secret Chief]

Not sure that is true. I recently drove from London to St Andrews and back, to drop my son off at university, and I noticed charging points just about everywhere we stopped, apart from Highland villages. (There were none on Tiree, strangely) All the motorway service stations have them. I'm hoping to get an electric car next (my car is 12 years old now, though lowish mileage). I think there is a good chance that if I can nurse the old one for another 18 months or so, an electric car should be feasible.

I know of no charging points in the city I live in save at two places (one being a car dealership). And being a grim northern town much of the housing is terraced houses with no offroad parking. Not sure how that's going to work with home charging points. Had to buy a new car last week. Swapped diesel for petrol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because petrol cars don't produce chemicals and such things when they burn? Petroleum isn't flammable?

I've seen maybe around 20 or so cars burned to the ground on the roadside in my lifetime. Not one of them was electric or hybrid.

I find this argument against electric cars to be a bit silly. Do you have any data on what percentage of electric cars have fires vs petrol ones to support this?

Electric cars actually can have very nasty fires that can be very difficult to put out and burn for days.
But, yes, of course petro cars come with fire hazards as well.

 

[exchemist]

I know of no charging points in the city I live in save at two places (one being a car dealership). And being a grim northern town much of the housing is terraced houses with no offroad parking. Not sure how that's going to work with home charging points. Had to buy a new car last week. Swapped diesel for petrol.

In London, where I live, there is also masses of Victorian terraced housing. There are charging points in some of the lamp posts*, and some parking bays on the street are fitted with charging pillars and reserved for for electric cars to charge. I've also recently read of a new type of charging pillar, that rises up from a tube in the pavement when you unlock it. So there are ways of doing all this. It's just a question of the speed (and cost) of rolling them out, which will depend on the local council - and the capacity of the cabling in the street, I guess.


*I've just checked the Wandsworth Council website, which says that they will do their best to install lamp post charging points for residents with no off-road parking, who have an electric car. However there is a waiting list of several hundred at present!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If I go out and buy a new electric vehicle to replace my petrol car will the reduction of emissions over the lifetime of the new car be greater than the emissions produced in manufacturing said vehicle?

As Rev pointed out, it really just depends on your usage.

 

[Secret Chief]

In London, where I live, there is also masses of Victorian terraced housing. There are charging points in some of the lamp posts*, and some parking bays on the street are fitted with charging pillars and reserved for for electric cars to charge. I've also recently read of a new type of charging pillar, that rises up from a tube in the pavement when you unlock it. So there are ways of doing all this. It's just a question of the speed (and cost) of rolling them out, which will depend on the local council - and the capacity of the cabling in the street, I guess.


*I've just checked the Wandsworth Council website, which says that they will do their best to install lamp post charging points for residents with no off-road parking, who have an electric car. However there is a waiting list of several hundred at present!

It will be a challenge. It often occurs that I can't find a parking space in my own street. My street of 22 houses (one of which is a 5 car household) has 3 lamp posts.

 

[exchemist]

Many think electric is green or energy or comes from a renewable source. It's not. Less than 20% of the electricity used in the US comes from renewable sources, and 60% comes from fossil fuels, almost 20% of that being coal.

View attachment 55468
1Utility-scale electricity generation is electricity generation from power plants with at least one megawatt (or 1,000 kilowatts) of total electricity generating capacity. Data are for net electricity generation.
2 Small-scale solar photovoltaic (PV) systems are electricity generators with less than one megawatt (MW) of electricity generating capacity, which are not connected at a power plant that has a combined capacity of one MW or larger. Most small-scale PV systems are at or near the location where the electricity is consumed and many are net metered systems. The smaller ones are usually installed on building rooftops.
3 Pumped storage hydroelectricity generation is negative because most pumped storage electricity generation facilities use more electricity than they produce on an annual basis. Most pumped storage systems use fossil fuels or nuclear energy for pumping water to the storage component of the system.
4 Other sources includes non-biogenic municipal solid waste, batteries, hydrogen, purchased steam, sulfur, tire-derived fuel, and other miscellaneous energy sources.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)​

Plus there is the carbon footprint that comes from battery disposal.

These are important to bear in mind when considering the purchase of an electric vehicle.

More important, though, is to consider the forecast proportion of emission-free electricity generation over the lifetime of the vehicle. The UK has gone from 30% coal in 2014 to <5% coal today (There are only 3 coal power stations left and these are only run when they have to be.) In the same period renewable electricity grew from ~ 5% to 25%. So the changes can be dramatic. Coal is fast on its way out.

So my advice would be not to dismiss the option of an electric car on grounds such as these, even in the USA.

 

[exchemist]

It will be a challenge. It often occurs that I can't find a parking space in my own street. My street of 22 houses (one of which is a 5 car household) has 3 lamp posts.

I know the feeling. That was true at my previous house in Putney. Where I am now is much easier, but we will need a lot more street chargers, that's clear. I think these telescopic ones in the pavement could be the answer, but that will take some years yet.

 

[Secret Chief]

I know the feeling. That was true at my previous house in Putney. Where I am now is much easier, but we will need a lot more street chargers, that's clear. I think these telescopic ones in the pavement could be the answer, but that will take some years yet.

I've got this vision of cables trailing everywhere, like spaghetti.

 

[SalixIncendium]

More important, though, is to consider the forecast proportion of emission-free electricity generation over the lifetime of the vehicle. The UK has gone from 30% coal in 2014 to <5% coal today (There are only 3 coal power stations left and these are only run when they have to be.) In the same period renewable electricity grew from ~ 5% to 25%. So the changes can be dramatic. Coal is fast on its way out.

So my advice would be not to dismiss the option of an electric car on grounds such as these, even in the USA.

I hope this winds up being the case, but the coal industry is alive and well in the Appalachians, not only polluting and using up natural resources, but raping the land as well.

Mountaintop Removal 101 » Appalachian Voices

 

[exchemist]

I've got this vision of cables trailing everywhere, like spaghetti.

The idea of the telescopic street pillars is to avoid that, of course. But if you only had chargers in street lamps, in a terrace, then you certainly would have spaghetti, I agree.

 

[exchemist]

I hope this winds up being the case, but the coal industry is alive and well in the Appalachians, not only polluting and using up natural resources, but raping the land as well.

Mountaintop Removal 101 » Appalachian Voices

Nah. Coal is dead. On economic grounds alone it can't compete any more, let alone the climate damage. Coal in future will only be use in chemical processes e.g. iron ore smelting. Even that is under threat from hydrogen-based ore reduction technology, now in development. Coal may limp on for a while in the US but not for long. If the US manages to avoid another Trumpist presidency, I feel sure coal will be down below 10% of the powergen mix in five years time.