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2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 12:8-9

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I agree with enough information about "Satan". I understand and agree with the fallen angles. but (below - next one)



Plenty of references about demons and angels but absolutely NO verse as to where demons come from. If you care to share the scripture, I will be willing to change my position.

Actually, the term "fallen angel" never even appears in the Bible:

In Abrahamic religions, fallen angels are angels who were expelled from heaven. The literal term "fallen angel" appears neither in the Bible nor in other Abrahamic scriptures, but is used to describe angels cast out of heaven[1] or angels who sinned. Such angels often tempt humans to sin.

The idea of fallen angels derived from the Book of Enoch, a Jewish pseudepigraph, or the assumption that the "sons of God" (בני האלוהים‎) mentioned in Genesis 6:1–4 are angels. In the period immediately preceding the composition of the New Testament, some sects of Judaism, as well as many Christian Church Fathers, identified these same "sons of God" as fallen angels. During the late Second Temple period the biblical giants were sometimes considered the monstrous offspring of fallen angels and human women. In such accounts, God sends the Great Deluge to purge the world of these creatures; their bodies are destroyed, yet their peculiar souls survive, thereafter roaming the earth as demons. Rabbinic Judaism and Christian authorities after the third century rejected the Enochian writings and the notion of an illicit union between angels and women producing giants. Christian theology indicates the sins of fallen angels occur before the beginning of human history. Accordingly, fallen angels became identified with those led by Satan in rebellion against God, also equated with demons.

(emphasis is mine)

click here: Fallen angel - Wikipedia

Also, here are the verses as to where demons come from in the links below:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "Only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, does this man drive out demons." (biblehub.com)

In theological sources, predominantly Christian, Beelzebub is another name for Satan.

Beelzebub - Wikipedia

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (biblehub.com)

Also see:

Revelation 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth. (biblehub.com)

David Davidovich said:
Well, let your brand of Christianity keep telling you that. Because your Christian interpretation doesn't represent all Christian interpretations on this topic. :rolleyes:

OK? (I don't think I mentioned what I believed only that there are different viewpoints by other Christians) :)

Hmmm. Sounds like you mentioned what you believed in this thread. :confused:
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Angels are in clouds.

What human thought would claim spare angels? As a thinking review just a human storyteller.

False thinking.

A human would ask another human wasn't the past terms.... rich men trade German by Hitler seeking gods greatest powers over men?

Yes.

Hating Jews. Rich life in England. Rich life allowed like in America. Hated by Hitler. Supporters of Jewish humanity versus his Egyptian beliefs.

Wanted America destroyed...England destroyed.

By man's own used science of God machine ground earth position.

Conscious man is in our heavens?

Yes..to think.

So he wanted by his thoughts to destroy both countries support of Jewish people? To do the same.

Yes.

Just by reading bible stories?

So you knew he researched many machines. Even conscious control. Proven by Russian sciences after!

Yes they say. It was true.

So did he already affect your minds knowing he sought technologies to destroy you? And wanted you destroyed as just a human in science.

Yes. Agreeable as consciousness human is heavenly aware by belief and choice.

And what men say as statements prove you no longer use words correctly. To think not about God.

But thinking about God you change ideas. As Hitler's choices had already changed the life of humanity. Minds.

As statements.

Did you ever wonder why science then agreed with Hitler's sciences? Even when he wanted you destroyed!

Knowing he wanted to use it to destroy life!

Nope. You didn't reason why or how he affected thinking by theists. Any type of theism including....as to be rich by numbers is used also. Theisms.

Why modern choices based on his terms affected modern man's choices. When he wasn't anyone to admire.

Is exact warnings of lineage and future humans choices.
 

Ella S.

Dispassionate Goth
So, why don't you give me your take on the topic (even if that includes that you don't believe that Revelation is future) rather than giving me all this twisty logic?

Because this is a debate thread, not a discussion thread, and you're going off-topic.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Because this is a debate thread, not a discussion thread, and you're going off-topic.

I see. So, getting back to the topic and the OP, are you saying that Revelation 12:8-9 individually describes Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out as some sort of allegory of what has already happened to them sometime in the remote past?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
A few thoughts.
Revelation jumps around in time much like Isaiah.
The devil and his followers being cast out was early in history (at least from our view).
The origin of demons is not well covered in the Bible. Being cast out of heaven with Satan seems to most probable.
 

Bree

Active Member
I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:



quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?



quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway

probably because Tartarus really does represent a place of mental darkness and not a physical place.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:



quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?



quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway
Only some of the angels were sent to tartarus. They will be released in the end days to punish the world which is the righteous judgment of God on evil of humans.
 
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