2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 12:8-9

[David Davidovich]

I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:

For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment (2 Pet 2:4 HCSB).​

Tartarus is not a place for men, but for the angels who rebelled against God. Their crime was especially heinous, because they should have known better, having been in God’s own presence. So they were thrown down into Tartarus, chained, and kept in darkness until the final judgment.

Jude also referred to this place:

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day (Jude 1:6).​

Do you notice how similar this is to Peter’s description? Is there any doubt Jude is referring to the same place—Tartarus? Here again, the angels left their domain and were cast down and kept in another. Notice the “eternal bonds” which is surely the chains that Peter referred to. See how they are confined to darkness and that it lasts until the day of judgment?

As I understand it, Tartarus is a separate compartment in the underworld—the special abode of fallen angels (see Clarence Larkin, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, pp. 21-22, 280; R. B. Thieme, The Angelic Conflict, pp. 55-56).

quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?

8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway

 

[Ella S.]

Is Revelation about future events?

 

[Brian2]

I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:



quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?



quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway

I suppose Satan and those who followed him are not the ones who came to earth and had sex with women and children by them, the Nephilim (Gen 6:4)

 

[paarsurrey]

I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:
quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)
I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?
quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway

" 2 Peter 2:4
Revelation 12:8-9"

The above verses are not from Jesus as the KJV has not marked them red in the Red Letter Bible, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Kenny]

I have a question about Tartarus in the Bible and the dwelling place of demons throughout most of human history. 2 Peter 2:4 uses the Greek word "Tartarus." And here's one explanation for it:



quotation from this link: Tartarus — 2 Peter 2:4 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

I know that some religions believe that Tartus represents a mental state of fallen angels being in deep darkness concerning spiritual matters. However, that seems to contradict Luke 8:31 where the demons are expressing that they were aware of their future destination in God's plan, the abyss. Also, they were supposed to have known about God's plan of salvation through Jesus and were supposed to have attempted to thwart God's plan. Therefore, what I would like to ask is: If the demons were supposed to have been in Tartarus for most of human history, then why does Revelation 12:8-9 (which is supposed to be about future events) describe Satan and his demons as being in heaven until they were kicked out?



quotation from this link: Revelation 12:8-9 NIV - But he was not strong enough, and they - Bible Gateway

There are many unanswered question that causes people to make assumptions that aren't necessarily correct. Additionally, since the Bible is about man, his ginning and ending, and not about angels and demons, the lack of all the information in the area of these two subjects (angels and demons) leaves more questions than answers.

I see the issues as following:

1) Are fallen angels and demons the same? Possibility is that there are different
2) The Bible records 3 heavens. Is the heaven in Rev. the same Heaven as where God is at?
3) Was Revelation 12:8-9 a recap of the first Heavenly war or a future event?
4) Were all the fallen angels held it Tartarus? or a select few?

Probably more questions than answer but my point is just that. There isn't enough information to come to a solid conclusion in this subject matter.

 

[David Davidovich]

Is Revelation about future events?

Well, since most consider that the book of Revelation was written the late 90s CE, according to Revelation 1:1, the things written in it were at least supposed to occur after that. Therefore, I can at least ask: Why were Satan and his demons still in heaven for 4 thousand years of human history (according to Bible chronology)?

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

the link where the quotation is from: Revelation 1:1 NIV - Prologue - The revelation from Jesus - Bible Gateway

 

[David Davidovich]

I suppose Satan and those who followed him are not the ones who came to earth and had sex with women and children by them, the Nephilim (Gen 6:4)

I don't know if Satan was supposed to have participated also, but that is how many people interpret the verses mentioned in the article from 2 Peter and Jude:

4 For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and didn’t spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;

click here: 2 Peter 2:4-5 WEB - For if God didn’t spare angels when - Bible Gateway

6 Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, having in the same way as these given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

click here: Jude 1:6-7 WEB - Angels who didn’t keep their first - Bible Gateway

 

[David Davidovich]

" 2 Peter 2:4
Revelation 12:8-9"

The above verses are not from Jesus as the KJV has not marked them red in the Red Letter Bible, please. Right?

Regards

Well, alrighty then.

 

[Ella S.]

Well, since most consider that the book of Revelation was written the late 90s CE, according to Revelation 1:1, the things written in it were at least supposed to occur after that

Revelation 1:1 has also been interpreted to mean that these are the things which must come to pass for each individual, thus making the whole book an allegory for the spiritual path.

This would make the events within it refer to a microcosmic copy of the history (and future) of creation contained within a single individual. So events in the future for an individual mirror events that have already happened on a macrocosmic level.

 

[David Davidovich]

There are many unanswered question that causes people to make assumptions that aren't necessarily correct. Additionally, since the Bible is about man, his ginning and ending, and not about angels and demons, the lack of all the information in the area of these two subjects (angels and demons) leaves more questions than answers.

But the Bible is very much about angels and demons and Satan. Especially, the Christian Greek Scriptures more so than (and if at all) the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures. Because according to Christianity, they are the core reason as to why humans were supposed to have rebelled against God, and who in particular, Christians are supposed to defeat in order to remain faithful to God and to have everlasting life.

I see the issues as following:

1) Are fallen angels and demons the same? Possibility is that there are different

Unless you can show that to me in the Bible, I would disagree you that there is a difference between them according Christian theology.

2) The Bible records 3 heavens. Is the heaven in Rev. the same Heaven as where God is at?

According to Revelation 12:10, it is since other scriptures consider Christ's Kingdom as being God's Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heavens:

10 I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

click here: Revelation 12:10 WEB - I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, - Bible Gateway

click here: 21 Bible verses about Kingdom Of Heaven (knowing-jesus.com)

3) Was Revelation 12:8-9 a recap of the first Heavenly war or a future event?

I've heard people say that before, but as I had replied to Ella S. in this thread, since the book of Revelation is considered to have been written in the late 90s CE, according to Revelation 1:1, the things written in it were at least supposed to occur after that. Also, I'm in the camp who doesn't believe that there was supposed to have been a first Heavenly war. Unless you can show that to me in scripture.

4) Were all the fallen angels held it Tartarus? or a select few?

Would there be a reason as to why some of the fallen angels were held in Tartarus, and other were not?

Probably more questions than answer but my point is just that. There isn't enough information to come to a solid conclusion in this subject matter.

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree. I would have to say it would be more of a matter of interpretation of the scriptures that we do have about this.

 

[David Davidovich]

Revelation 1:1 has also been interpreted to mean that these are the things which must come to pass for each individual, thus making the whole book an allegory for the spiritual path.

This would make the events within it refer to a microcosmic copy of the history (and future) of creation contained within a single individual. So events in the future for an individual mirror events that have already happened on a macrocosmic level.

Could you please prove that to me?

 

[Kenny]

But the Bible is very much about angels and demons and Satan. Especially, the Christian Greek Scriptures more so than (and if at all) the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures. Because according to Christianity, they are the core reason as to why humans were supposed to have rebelled against God, and who in particular, Christians are supposed to defeat in order to remain faithful to God and to have everlasting life.

I didn't say it didn't talk about it. I said that the Bible is about humanity, from his creation and fall, Genesis; God's pursuit until salvation came - OT to NT; to his final destination, Revelation.

Yes, it does speak about angels and demons, but in comparison to everything else, very little.e

Unless you can show that to me in the Bible, I would disagree you that there is a difference between them according Christian theology.

Please tell me where it says "demons are angels"?

There are three camps: They are angels, they are disembodied Nephilim giants, or a pre-adamic race.

Where Do Demons Come From?
Are demons disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race? - BibleAsk

According to Revelation 12:10, it is since other scriptures consider Christ's Kingdom as being God's Kingdom and the Kingdom of Heavens:

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

There are three heavens. Some say the first is our atmosphere, the second is space and the third is where God is at.

I've heard people say that before, but as I had replied to Ella S. in this thread, since the book of Revelation is considered to have been written in the late 90s CE, according to Revelation 1:1, the things written in it were at least supposed to occur after that. Also, I'm in the camp who doesn't believe that there was supposed to have been a first Heavenly war. Unless you can show that to me in scripture.

Revelations is about things that were, that are and that are to come.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but Satan was cast down to earth before Adam sinned.

Would there be a reason as to why some of the fallen angels were held in Tartarus, and other were not?

This is where I am saying, "there just isn't enough information for us to know". It doesn't explain why, how many or exactly for what reason. We know that Satan isn't bound and he is an angel.

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree. I would have to say it would be more of a matter of interpretation of the scriptures that we do have about this.

I honor that position. The question is, whose interpretation is correct in relation to demons and angels. When I am in Heaven, it is one of those questions that I will present or maybe there is a class called "Angelolgy and Demonolgy -- what you didn't understand"

 

[Ella S.]

Could you please prove that to me?

Which part?

The fact that Revelation is regarded esoterically should not come across as too much of a surprise, given that occultists have read the entire New Testament as symbolic metaphor for at least a few centuries now. I could give you specific Christian esotericists that make this claim.

The approach itself is called "idealism" in Christian eschatology, as described by figures such as Jacob Taubes and FD Maurice.

Whether this is truly what Revelation means is a matter of scriptural interpretation, and not something I can provide evidence for. I merely wanted to point out that Revelation is not always taken so literally.

 

[David Davidovich]

I didn't say it didn't talk about it. I said that the Bible is about humanity, from his creation and fall, Genesis; God's pursuit until salvation came - OT to NT; to his final destination, Revelation.

Yes, it does speak about angels and demons, but in comparison to everything else, very little.e

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point because based on my knowledge of the Bible, the Bible does more than just talk about Satan and the demons. But instead, they appear to be an integral part of Christianity and the Christian Greek Scripture (i.e. NT). Although, much of that would depend on what denomination one would belong to.

Please tell me where it says "demons are angels"?

There are three camps: They are angels, they are disembodied Nephilim giants, or a pre-adamic race.

Where Do Demons Come From?
Are demons disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race? - BibleAsk

It would have been nice to post some quotes for those articles, because I don't have time to read the entire articles.

Also, here is a quote from Christianity.com, which shows that demons are the same thing as fallen angels:

When Satan fell, one-third of the angelic host joined him in his rebellion. These angels who fell with Satan are now known as demons. Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. Demons and fallen angels are used interchangeably in the Bible.

click here: Are Demons Really Fallen Angels? (christianity.com)

Also, I believe that sometimes, shorter answers are better than longer ones.

Revelations is about things that were, that are and that are to come.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but Satan was cast down to earth before Adam sinned.

You'll have to elaborate a little bit more on that one.

This is where I am saying, "there just isn't enough information for us to know". It doesn't explain why, how many or exactly for what reason. We know that Satan isn't bound and he is an angel.

Well, I'll accept that as being your answer, however, I've seen other scriptures that shows that it does.

I honor that position. The question is, whose interpretation is correct in relation to demons and angels.

Well, what I would like to know is: why would God inspire scriptures to be so confusing on this matter and on other matters?

When I am in Heaven, it is one of those questions that I will present or maybe there is a class called "Angelolgy and Demonolgy -- what you didn't understand"

 

[Kenny]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point because based on my knowledge of the Bible, the Bible does more than just talk about Satan and the demons. But instead, they appear to be an integral part of Christianity and the Christian Greek Scripture (i.e. NT). Although, much of that would depend on what denomination one would belong to.



It would have been nice to post some quotes for those articles, because I don't have time to read the entire articles.

Also, here is a quote from Christianity.com, which shows that demons are the same thing as fallen angels:



click here: Are Demons Really Fallen Angels? (christianity.com)

Also, I believe that sometimes, shorter answers are better than longer ones.



You'll have to elaborate a little bit more on that one.



Well, I'll accept that as being your answer, however, I've seen other scriptures that shows that it does.



Well, what I would like to know is: why would God inspire scriptures to be so confusing on this matter and on other matters?

Maybe we are attacking this subject wrong since:

1) I don't think God is confusing in inspired scriptures. If He were to write everything, we wouldn't have enough room to put all the books in the whole world
2) I didn't say God didn't address information about demons and angels... it just isn't a compendium on the subject.
3) The site says "These angels who fell with Satan are now known as demons." - Just a statement - no scripture reference.

BUT EQUALLY, I could say the same thing about the other two options. No actual scripture reference - just a statement.

Which is my point. There just isn't enough information other that there are fallen angels and there are demons.

So, where do you want to go from here?

 

[David Davidovich]

Revelation 1:1 has also been interpreted to mean that these are the things which must come to pass for each individual, thus making the whole book an allegory for the spiritual path.

This would make the events within it refer to a microcosmic copy of the history (and future) of creation contained within a single individual. So events in the future for an individual mirror events that have already happened on a macrocosmic level.

So are you saying that is the interpretation that you believe?

 

[Ella S.]

So are you saying that is the interpretation that you believe?

What I believe is irrelevant. Your initial post makes an assumption about the proper interpretation of Revelation that you have to support against dissenting perspectives.

Why should we believe that Revelation is a literal prophecy about the future, rather than an allegorical description of spiritual development?

 

[David Davidovich]

Maybe we are attacking this subject wrong since:

1) I don't think God is confusing in inspired scriptures. If He were to write everything, we wouldn't have enough room to put all the books in the whole world

Sorry, dude, but that's a non sequitur.

2) I didn't say God didn't address information about demons and angels... it just isn't a compendium on the subject.

You're the first Christian that I've ever heard said that. Most other Christians that I know of or that I talked to feels that the Bible gives them sufficient knowledge in understanding the world of and the history of Satan and his demons.

3) The site says "These angels who fell with Satan are now known as demons." - Just a statement - no scripture reference.

So, I guess you also did not click on or read the linked article because the article uses lots of scriptural references.

BUT EQUALLY, I could say the same thing about the other two options. No actual scripture reference - just a statement.

Which is my point. There just isn't enough information other that there are fallen angels and there are demons.

Well, let your brand of Christianity keep telling you that. Because your Christian interpretation doesn't represent all Christian interpretations on this topic.

So, where do you want to go from here?

Actually, with your inflexibility, this conversation is going nowhere.

 

[David Davidovich]

What I believe is irrelevant. Your initial post makes an assumption about the proper interpretation of Revelation that you have to support against dissenting perspectives.

Why should we believe that Revelation is a literal prophecy about the future, rather than an allegorical description of spiritual development?

So, why don't you give me your take on the topic (even if that includes that you don't believe that Revelation is future) rather than giving me all this twisty logic?

 

[Kenny]

You're the first Christian that I've ever heard said that. Most other Christians that I know of or that I talked to feels that the Bible gives them sufficient knowledge in understanding the world of and the history of Satan and his demons.

I agree with enough information about "Satan". I understand and agree with the fallen angles. but (below - next one)

So, I guess you also did not click on or read the linked article because the article uses lots of scriptural references.

Plenty of references about demons and angels but absolutely NO verse as to where demons come from. If you care to share the scripture, I will be willing to change my position.

Well, let your brand of Christianity keep telling you that. Because your Christian interpretation doesn't represent all Christian interpretations on this topic.

OK? (I don't think I mentioned what I believed only that there are different viewpoints by other Christians)

Actually, with your inflexibility, this conversation is going nowhere.

OK