19th-century glass-looking and money-digging

[Delano]

Hi all.

I'm not quite certain this section is the appropriate place for such a topic but here goes...

I'm interested if anybody can help me concerning finding information on early 19th-century glass-lookers and money-diggers, particularly in the eastern United States.

I understand this field of studies is filled with amusing and bizarre legends, and is interesting psychologically as a testament to human gullibility.

Thanks in advance!:bow:

 

[SoulTraveler]

You probably know this already, but in case you don't: the form of divination practiced by Joseph Smith, Jr, founder of the Mormon church during the 19th-century, was glass-looking.

 

[Sylvan]

Yes Joseph Smith had a presumably shiny stone he put in the bottom of his overturned stove-pipe hat he called the Urim and Thummim, and peered down into the darkness to scry. He was "employed" as a treasure hunter using this method before founding the much more "prophetable" Mormon religion. The area of new york he was in was filled with native burial mounds being plundered for the curio marketplace ... and a popular idea at the time was that the natives were actually the lost tribes of Israel (that's right... he didn't make that one up).

The assumption was that there must be some kind of ancient Israelite gold horde out in the wilds of upstate new york, and there were various men who would purport to use divination or dowsing to help people find these treasure hordes. The usual scam was to find some investors who would pay for the expedition in return for the majority of the treasure, take them out to x location after having these guys pay their bills for a few months/years, then say oops and find another set of suckers. Joseph Smith was one of these gentleman.

Then the angels appeared to him and showed him the supposed golden plates, which he "translated" by looking in the stone and transcribing letter by letter, and which they then took before anyone besides his close followers could see. He also "translated" a Mormon scripture called the Book of Abraham in this manner out of what was later proved to be perfectly ordinary ancient Egyptian funeral documents, original copies of which were being sold out of carts all over the US & Europe at the time due to an ongoing archeological rampage .

In Mormon childrens books you often see the Urim and Thummim as a pair of "magical spectacles".

 

[Katzpur]

Yes Joseph Smith had a presumably shiny stone he put in the bottom of his overturned stove-pipe hat he called the Urim and Thummim, and peered down into the darkness to scry... In Mormon childrens books you often see the Urim and Thummim as a pair of "magical spectacles".

Out of curiosity, which Mormon children's books describe the Urim and Thummim as "magic spectacles"? Can you name a single one? I wonder if the Urim and Thummim were portrayed as "magic spectacles" in Old Testament times, too.

Then the angels appeared to him and showed him the supposed golden plates, which he "translated" by looking in the stone and transcribing letter by letter, and which they then took before anyone besides his close followers could see.

Eleven individuals other than Joseph Smith saw and handled the plates. How many eye-witnesses would it take to substantiate a similar claim in a court of law today? Regardless of how Joseph Smith came to be in possession of the plates, regardless of what they may have said, and regardless of how they may have been translated, it's really pretty stupid to try to argue that they never existed.

He also "translated" a Mormon scripture called the Book of Abraham in this manner out of what was later proved to be perfectly ordinary ancient Egyptian funeral documents, original copies of which were being sold out of carts all over the US & Europe at the time due to an ongoing archeological rampage .

Joseph purchased a number of scrolls, the majority of which were destroyed in the great Chicago fire. Most were never translated, and there is no evidence to suggest that the ones that were not destroyed (the funerary documents) were the ones from which the Book of Abraham was translated. Based on Joseph Smith's description of that particular scroll, it was among those destroyed, as none of the remaining ones match the description he gave.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not quite certain this section is the appropriate place for such a topic but here goes...

It's probably not, since your question is definitely going to turn into a debate on the beginnings of Mormonism, a subject on which huge numbers of uninformed individuals will claim expertise.

 

[Sylvan]

Well I have no interest in starting that debate here. The plates may very well have been delivered by angelic hand, and the scrolls in question may very well have met that fate. I believe far "crazier" things have happened, and still do on a regular basis. And if you read my post closely I never tried to argue anything about that one way or another, just presented the summery of the story to my understanding. The word translated, however, doesn't really accurately convey the process by which the golden plates were rendered into the english language, and therefore deserves to be surrounded in quotes. Take what inference from that you will.

We can be grown ups here, so lets try to leave old Joe out of it for the rest of this thread which we can try to get back on track here.. But you have to admit there is not all that much information on his contemporaries and he is the certainly the most famous figure among 19th century glass-lookers and treasure finders I can think of. Since you seem to be the expert I'd love some suggestions for sources in this regard.

However, some questions:
When I collected Mormon ephemera for a time in college I had a book (now long gone. no idea of the title..) which had a drawing of a pair of old timey spectacles surrounded by a glow, and a title next to it implying that this was the Umim and Thummim. I assumed this to be a standard way of explaining this peculiarity in the story of the plates to children? Or at least was at one time? If that isn't the case I stand corrected but I saw what I saw.

My real question is that if most Mormons are aware of the means by which the plates were "translated" then why don't Mormon men practice scrying? Assuming Smith's seer stones are still in the possession of the Church, why don't the Prophets get them out from time to time and give them a whirl?
Is it D&C Section 9?

Before reading that wiki I had never encountered the description of the stones in a breastplate (outside of old testament sources). I don't get what they mean by "looking like an enormous pair of spectacles".. These stones were set into the breastplate and mounted on silver "bows" so he could look through them at the plates? And where did this whole idea of looking at the stones in the bottom of his hat come from? Was that prior to receiving the revelations, back when he was indeed treasure digging?

 

[Sylvan]

And the sound of crickets replies.

I really would like some sources on this treasure hunter phenomenon in early upstate new york. A sadly unmined vein of american history.

And the more I think about it the way they describe the Smith's seer-stones (pyramid shaped diamonds) and the apparatus which he used to mount them.. (a set of "silver bows" into a breastplate.. looking something like a pair of gigantic spectacles??)..looks so awesome. Like a pair of tiny elongated crystal tits. Some steampunk should design "Joseph Smith reading glasses" that set into an enormous leather breastplate for hands free reading...

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Hey, I don't know sources, sorry. But I'm pretty sure the "seer stone" Joseph used was different from the urim and thummim that were similar to a pair of spectacles.

As for why don't the Prophets get them out and give them a whirl? Who says they don't? We sustain all of the apostles as prophets seers and revelators. We believe that our prophets continue to see things and warn us how to avoid danger (spiritually mostly, sometimes temporally). I think it is likely that the prophet still uses the Urim and Thummim.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Oh, and by the way, I have an idea of what scrying is. I looked it up once because of some experiences I had with the mirror. I'm a little wary of it. Okay, a LOT wary of it. It gives me the heebie jeebies. (I realize that will sound deliciously ironic from your point of view. Yeah, I know...)

 

[Sylvan]

Yes the seer stone was just one stone I think, and used in the bottom of the hat. Smiths mother describes the U&T as "two smooth three-cornered diamonds." These are the ones set in the hypothetical crystal tits breastplate.

Re: the scrying thing I will just reprint what I replied to your PM as someone may find it entertaining, so this is obviously totally IMO everyone it's crazy time:

As for the scary aspects of scrying well yes after a bit of practice I can say it is a little like dreaming while awake, using the phenomena of the unconscious mind and its relationship to your visual cortex to produce images. Like dreams these can be scary. So these images are all just imaginings? :no:

Most certainly are, but some may be higher (or lower if you have done something stupid/careless to attract them) beings giving us messages. Such as the ones you folks know as Elohim and Jehovah gave as dreams and fasting visions to the old testament prophets of their peoples, and as visions and "translations" to Joe Smiths waking sight through this scrying technology he had picked up somewhere. These messages don't have to just come spontaneously, there are ways you can ask for them..

So how do you tune into the "right channel" so to speak? By heartfelt prayer to the god (or gods in my case) you trust the most. I'm sure JS spent many hours on his knees pouring out his heart to the Heavenly Father before "translating" whatever those plates are/were (lets not get into that one) which is why what came through resonates as truth for so many (after, indeed, they pray to be shown if it is true) instead of being the schizoid ramblings that often emerge from such sources. I mean I'm sure there are many that include the Book of Mormon in that category but that's ok, you see what I mean. Or this is just more schizoid rambling, which is also ok. Its just how I see things.

 

[idea]

Joseph Smith/Seer stones - FAIRMormon

.....

 

[Sylvan]

Thank you for that excellent and informative link!