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144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    1-in light of mark10, i must disagree.

    mark10:37-40

    ""And they said to Him, “Grant us to be seated in Your esteem, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left.” But [​IMG] said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be immersed with the immersion that I am immersed with?” And they said to Him, “We are able.And [​IMG] said to them, “You shall indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the immersion I am immersed with you shall be immersed,r but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” ”

    1-why don't jw's drink from the cup of [​IMG]?
    2-this is why i disagree with your statement.
     
  2. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    My question to you is this: If the 144,000 and the great multitude both have the same hope of going to heaven with the exact same causes, then why separate them? Your argument about context is not particularly valid, since there is MUCH scriptural evidence in the favour of an earthly class because of it’s use of description about them. Continuing on in Rev 7:15-17: “That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

    Rev 21:3,4: “And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    Since when do angelic individuals have the CAPACITY to shed tears, feel pain, feel hunger, feel thirsty, get hot from the sun beating down on them, and even, die? If it was a full gone conclusion that the “great multitude” WERE going to heaven, would he even NEED to say that to them? No. The last time I checked, angels were NOT humans, therefore, it points to a group of HUMANS that he is referring to that would never suffer these emotions that ONLY humans suffer again.

    Can you give me a single occasion in the ENTIRE Bible where an angelic being suffered as a human being did and shed tears? No. So why would it be different this time around? Why is the 144,000 not ALSO referred to as sharing the same human emotions?



    Scriptural evidence to support this…? I’m yet to see a passage in the Bible that describes this kind of scenario where 50lb hailstones come to the earth. I look forward for you showing me this directly from the Bible.
     
  3. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    That scripture has been taken out of context to support you own doctrine. However, since you find the heavenly concept "easy" to explain, explain the following:

    Acts 2:29,34: “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand”.

    Isaiah 45:18: “For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.”

    “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”—John 3:13. Therefore, according to Jesus’ own words, no man had gone to heaven for all those 4,000 years of human history down until his day.

    At Revelation 14:1, 3 the Bible says: “And I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the [heavenly] Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought [or, taken] from the earth.” Note that only 144,000 persons are seen with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22) So rather than all good people going to heaven, the Bible reveals that only 144,000 tried and faithful persons will be taken there to rule with Christ.

    “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom”! (1 Cor. 15:50) In explaining the annual Atonement Day or Yom Kippur of the Jews, the Jewish Christian Paul proves that Jesus Christ did not take his fleshly body with him to heaven but left it behind as a human sacrifice.

    “For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Phil. 2:8-11.

    “Your kingdom come! Your will be done on earth as well as in heaven!”—Matt. 6:9, 10,

    “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool,” God said. (Isaiah 66:1) Being the very acme of holiness, God will not allow his “footstool” to be soiled by evil indefinitely.

    “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.”—Psalm 37:9.

    "Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it]. – Psalms 37:34

    “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.” – Psalms 37:29

    “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”—Proverbs 2:21, 22.

    “And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.” – Isaiah 65:21-23

    Luke 23:43: “And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

    “that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.” – Roman 8:21


    Revelation 21:1-4 answers, saying: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind . . . And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    Genesis 1:27,28: “And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”


    Isaiah 11:9: “They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.”

    “Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding. Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?” (Job 38:1, 4, 6, 7)

    “In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.” – Psalms 45:16

    These are just a few scriptures I found to support an earthly hope – can they be ALL be wrong?



    Literally “tortured and persecuted” is not an exact criteria for all the 144,000 – and never say it does: “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.” (Revelation 14:4) Being bought from among mankind, they were once ordinary men and women just like all the rest of mankind, but from this fact earth’s inhabitants over whom these 144,000 will rule as kings have nothing to fear. They have become “holy ones,” just as any “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” would have to be strictly “holy.” Is there anything to fear from the rulership of Jesus Christ? No! And likewise there is nothing to be uneasy about as to the rulership of the 144,000 “bought from among mankind.” They have obeyed the apostle Paul’s counsel: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 2:5) Also, the apostle Peter’s counsel in 1 Peter 4:1:

    “Therefore since Christ suffered in the flesh, you too arm yourselves with the same mental disposition; because the person that has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins.”

    Therefore, as long as they have the “mental disposition” in order to resist the trials and tribulations that will befall them, and despite all that, continue to follow him, THOSE are the ones that Jesus sees fit to make 144,000. The remaining 8,000 today may not be right now literally “tortured”, but if they were to undergo this “torture”, there “mental disposition” that the Apostle Peter described would carry them through.
     
  4. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    The scripture was actually referring to the cup of baptism - it is not a literal cup a person is to drink from:

    Mark 10:38: "But Jesus said to them: "YOU do not know what YOU are asking for. Are YOU able to drink the cup which I am drinking, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am being baptized?"



    He explained to his disciples that he was already undergoing this baptism during his ministry. (Mr 10:38, 39) He was baptized fully into death when he was plunged into death by being impaled on the torture stake on Nisan 14, 33 C.E. His resurrection by his Father Jehovah God on the third day completed this baptism, which includes a raising up. Jesus’ baptism into death is clearly distinct and separate from his water baptism, for he had completely undergone water baptism at the beginning of his ministry, at which time his baptism into death only began.


    The faithful apostles of Jesus Christ were baptized in water by John’s baptism. (Joh 1:35-37; 4:1) But they had not yet been baptized with holy spirit when Jesus pointed out that they were also to be baptized in a symbolic baptism like his, a baptism into death. (Mr 10:39) So baptism into his death is something apart from water baptism. Paul expressed himself in his letter to the Christian congregation at Rome, saying: "Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"—Ro 6:3.

    It is Jehovah God who is responsible for the performing of such baptism into Christ Jesus as well as baptism into his death. He anointed Jesus, making him the Christ or Anointed One. (Ac 10:38) Thus God baptized Jesus with the holy spirit in order that, through Jesus, his followers might thereafter be baptized with holy spirit. Therefore, those who become joint heirs with him, with heavenly hopes, have to be "baptized into Christ Jesus," that is, into the Anointed Jesus who, at the time of his anointing, was also begotten to be a spiritual son of God. They thereby become united to him, their Head, and they become members of the congregation that is the body of Christ.—1Co 12:12, 13, 27; Col 1:18.

    The course of these Christian followers who are baptized into Christ Jesus is a course of integrity-keeping under test from the time they are baptized into Christ, a daily facing of death and finally a death of integrity, as described by the apostle Paul when he explained to the Roman Christians: "Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection."—Ro 6:4, 5; 1Co 15:31-49.

    Clarifying the matter still further, Paul, in writing to the congregation at Philippi, described his own course as "a sharing in [Christ’s] sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, to see if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead." (Php 3:10, 11) Only the Almighty God the heavenly Father, who is the Baptizer of those who are baptized in union with Jesus Christ and into his death, can complete the baptism. This He does through Christ by raising them up out of death to be united with Jesus Christ in the likeness of his resurrection, which is to heavenly, immortal life.—1Co 15:53, 54.

    That a congregation of people can, so to speak, be baptized or immersed into a liberator and leader is illustrated by the apostle Paul when he describes the congregation of Israel as being "baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea." There they were covered with a protecting cloud and with the walls of water on each side of them, being, symbolically speaking, immersed. Moses foretold that God would raise up a prophet like himself; Peter applied this prophecy to Jesus Christ.—1Co 10:1, 2; De 18:15-19; Ac 3:19-23.

    Therefore, do JW's drink from a literal cup in order to be who they are (144,000)? No. Rather, it is something symbolic which is decided upon spiritually. By whom? Jesus Christ.


     
  5. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    not his to give.you haven't cited a verse that says it was/is his(yeshua's) choice.
     
  6. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    It specifically says that the 144k are made up of 12k from each of the tribes of Israel
     
  7. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Symbolically speaking, yes. Literally speaking, no. It is symbolic to "spiritual Israelites" who will be in a symbolic city called "New Jerusalem" (Rev 21:10). Both are symbolic, and depict his former relationship with Israel in ancient times - which no longer is. However, this "relationship" has begun spiritually again, not with literal Israelites and a literal Jerusalem, but spiritual Israelites and a "holy" Jerusalem.
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    if the jw's truly believe that being of the 144k is a personal revelation, then why do they also believe moses was removed from this company?

    if you disagree, as you should with it being a logically unsound statement, then know i am not speaking of hearsay.my jw friend told me this and i didn't bother to question it at the time.
     
  9. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    HelpMe, you have to understand the whole concept of the 144,000 and why they are who they are first to answer that. The reason why the whole 144,000 process came into existence is because Jesus came to earth and died, and before he died, he wanted to take a "little flock" with him to reflect his time on earth and the trials and tribulatons he went through.

    Rev 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years."

    "You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30)

    "These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (Revelation 14:4)

    "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 2:5)

    "Our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philippians 3:20)

    "On this rockmass [petra] I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha´des will not overpower it." (Matt. 16:18)

    So clearly, Jesus is the leader of this "144,000" - a position God appointed him. But who is responsible for selecting the 144,000? Here is the clincher:

    "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. . . . Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood [by means of faith], you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day.John 6:39, 40, 44, 53, 54.




     
  10. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Because Moses was before Christ. The selection of the 144,000 only began once and after Jesus was on earth. How do we know this?

    “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”—John 3:13. Therefore, according to Jesus’ own words, no man had gone to heaven for all those 4,000 years of human history down until his day - only after.
     
  11. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i fail to read into that as you do.it merely says he will bring them to life.not to heaven.i have already given you scripture that says even those who are not going to heaven should drink of his cup.

    i have already given you the scripture that says the people with him are not his choice, you have still yet to provide scripture that says (basically) 'to sit at his side is his to give'.
     
  12. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Jesus is their leader...prove otherwise. ;)
     
  13. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    that is not the issue, but according to the issue, you have yet to refute it, or substantiate your claim that it is his choice.


    Mt20:23
    Mt26:39
     
  14. precept

    precept Member

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    I kept wondering how you would "spin" the 8000 of your own into heaven. Your error, however, lies is in the fact that "disposition" of any sort is not a pre-requsite for salvation. Jesus, the Author of salvation says; " If any[including your 8,000]will come after me; let him deny himself and take up his CROSS DAILY..." Luke 9:23.

    The 144,000 saved persons are described as having gone through trials!...that's why "they hunger no more"...as having gone through trials!...that's why "they thirst no more"....as having gone through trials!...that's why "they are now sheltered from the sun and its intense heat"

    AND YOU WANTED TO KNOW WHICH "HAIL" AND WHICH "SUN'S HEAT" AND WHEN DID THOSE AMONG THE 144, 000 SUFFER? Read Revelation chapters 15 and 16. Any child of God living during the "seven last plagues", qualify re the suffering that Only those numbered among the 144,000 is to experience.

    How would your 8,000 feel if their suffering was ONLY IN A "DISPOSITION of the mind", while the children of God, burnt at the stake, quartered by horses made to gallop in opposite directions; Christians stretched on racks till their limbs are pulled from their bodies; all dying in agony for the love of their Saviour. Your 8000 in the meantime stand on the "outside" of the circle awaiting their chance to tell how they would have had the "disposition" to suffer if called upon to do so.

    Be honest; if you were one of the eight thousand would you even so much as open your mouth to expose your lack of suffering for your Master?


    You are not able to see your own error in interpreting scripture. Revelation chapter 7 in describes both groups of first the 144,000 and the other group a great multitude which no man could number, as "STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD"
    In case you miss the point... the great multitude would not have been "standing before the Throne of God if they were not in heaven!
    The Throne of God is to be found ONLY IN HEAVEN! Acts 7:49

    In answer to your other question.....Jesus had already told all His followers that accepting Him as Saviour would expose them to persecution and even death. He also told them that if they remained faithful to death their reward would be "Great" as compared to those who followed him faithfully but who did not experience persecution. Again read Matthew 5:12.



    There is no question that the privileges of the 144,000 place them in heaven and have them as following the Lamb wherever He went. There is no question that the great multitude which no man could number will live in a new earth. But your understanding is lacking in your not being able to see that first....both the saints that are resurrected and the saints alive when Jesus returns are taken back to heaven with Jesus; and that after the living wicked, when Jesus returns are "slain by the brightness of His coming"; and by the "mountains and rocks" that fell on the wicked, killing them all...that "the rest of the dead [the wicked]lived not again till the thousand years were finished". Revelation 20:5...And that the saints went to heaven and "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"...Revelation 20:4...And that it is after the said thousand years is expired that Satan will mobilize the resurrected wicked...Rev.20:5-8 who will "encompass the 'beloved city'...." Yes that city in Revelation 21:2 "That came down from God out of heaven"
    And now when you are utterly confused...the ultimate happens to the wicked in Revelation 20:9..."Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them".



    .



    Again; you are wrong! For by your own reasoning you place only the 144,000 in heaven. By virtue of this reasoning they are the only ones as described in verses 15-17 of Revelation chapter 7; in which "THEY ARE BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD; SERVING HIM DAY AND NIGHT; THEY SHALL HUNGER NO MORE; NOR THIRST; NOR ENDURE THE UNBEARABLE HEAT FROM THE SUN".
    And they are also the ones WHOSE TEARS GOD WIPED AWAY"...The same ones you declare "are without human emotinos".



    Quote:

    The 144,000 persons were exposed to a earth where the entire water system is turned into blood....all the fish in the sea have died, the sun is scorching humanity with unbearable heat...humanity have broken out in incurable sores....and now with "hail" weighing in excess of 50lbs falling out of the sky and destroying everything in sight.
    </FONT></B>

    Scriptural evidence to support this…? I’m yet to see a passage in the Bible that describes this kind of scenario where 50lb hailstones come to the earth. I look forward for you showing me this directly from the Bible.[/QUOTE]
    My pleasure! Read Revelation Chapters 15 and 16.


    precept
     
  15. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    So you’re saying that Jehovah’s Witness have never suffered? You can’t even begin to comprehend how much we have suffered in our history. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with the anointed remnant within it have been murdered, beheaded for political neutrality, their heads beaten with a baton until their skulls caved in, feet tortured so that they were never able to walk properly again, gassed to death, speared to death in Africa, been torn away from their families – never to see them again because of executions, jail terms of 20 years with hard labour for no justifiable reason whatsoever in China, Russia, and much of Eastern Europe, mobbed by political groups and battered, mutilated for their faith, persecuted by the Nazi’s (Hitler hated us), 40,000 were put in concentration camps, 2000 died and 250 were executed, and tortured to the point of death and then asked to sign a letter a resignation of their faith – which they readily refused. Also, the “Purple Triangle” experiences under the Nazi’s was no secret either:

    http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/PurpleTriangle.html

    http://www.baycrest.org/Spring%202001/article12.htm

    http://www.baycrest.org/Spring%202001/article11.htm


    WHY did these Witnesses suffer so much and DIE for their causes? BECAUSE they loved Jehovah God Almighty and they had full faith in the hope of a resurrection that was provided by Jesus Christ our Messiah. While the Witnesses were getting slaughtered and brutally tortured for remaining neutral during the wars, CHRISTENDOM were actually political pawns and were claiming that God was on their side! WHO did the better under persecution for their faith?!

    Many of our “heavenly class” died horrible deaths throughout our history…so does that satisfy your “criteria” of “they must be tortured” or do you want me to post some more – because there is much more from where that came from.

    In reference to the current 8,000, many of them are old and have suffered much during their earlier days – they may not be suffering NOW this second, but you can BET they would do it all again in the name of their faith and Jehovah GOD!



    The revelations to the Apostle John were –VISIONS- and –PROPHECIES- that were not literally happening at the time like you are implying – and your view of the great multitude going to heaven is an inaccurate one. Additionally, if you look at the scriptures themselves:

    Rev 14:3: “And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth

    This verse graphically says that the 144,000 are the only ones who are “brought from the earth” – it never says that about the great multitude. I don’t understand why you can’t see the basic logic behind all this.

    Rev 21:1-4: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    Again, this verse in detail separates the two entities the righteous will live in – both in heaven (the 144,000, see Rev 14:3) and on earth – which is the rest of mankind. You don’t need a masterclass in Biblical scholarship to comprehend this.



    That’s not what you were saying in the last few posts. But finally, I can agree with you on this one – unfortunately though, your Church does not agree with you. I KNOW what Christendom teaches: That if you’re good, you go to heaven, if you’re bad, you go to hell – end of story. They leave no room (and neither want to give room) to the concept of life on earth. If I were you, I would have a-lot of questions for my local pastor – because you just contradicted your own faith with what you just said (in the light of proper scripture examination).




    Name me ONE VERSE in the entire Bible that says the great multitude will go to heaven before coming back to earth at a later date – and don’t tell me that the visions of John (which were not literally happening) is you only reference to these claims.





    That verse is talking about the great multitude! Today the “great crowd” who have dedicated themselves and symbolized their dedication by water baptism also enjoy forgiveness of their sins through the blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ They thus enjoy peace with Jehovah God and become numbered among his “men of good will.” (Luke 2:14) Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and Goats calls them “the righteous ones.” Revelation 7:9, 14 pictures them as “dressed in white robes,” which robes they have washed and made white “in the blood of the Lamb.” God now recognizes them, and so “they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple,” and he wipes out every tear from their eyes.—Rev. 7:15-17.




    I still can’t find the words “50lb hailstones” no matter how hard I look. Would you kindly quote the particular verse that says these words to me? Or do I take your local pastors word for it? I am aware of the 7 plagues and the 7 bowls of anger but not “50lb hailstones”.



    WitnessofJah
     
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  16. precept

    precept Member

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    "Witness...." It makes no difference what proof you are exposed to from scripture! Refuting your argument with scripture only causes you to re-interpret your own mis-interpretation.
    This is a sure sign that you and your group choose to make the scripture of "private interpretation" a practice forbidden in scripture.

    I would exhort you to desist and instead "study to show yourself approved unto God; to rightly divide the word of truth".

    I don't suppose that you would want me to direct you to the book
    and chapter in scripture where the above warning is found!
    There is another warning also found in scripture that warns that "if any man adds to the scripture, "God will add to him the plagues" with which you are familiar.

    Again I exhort you to not tamper with scripture!



    precept
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Back to an earlier statement:

    Actually, the unfortunate part is not that God is ill prepared to save, but that very few are willing to respond. The invitation is open to all, but few are willing to sacrifice their lives.
     
  18. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    That is how you are supposed to argue! Are you saying that the Bible is an inconclusive tool in backing up arguments?! Does a true religion bypass his inspired words?

    I can also show you some additional scriptures that I am familiar with:

    Matthew 15:9: "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines."

    Colossians 2:8: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."

    Matthew 15:3: "In reply he said to them: "Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition?"

    Does the Trinity ring any bells to you?

    Does a burning fiery furnace of hell of eternal torture sound like a provision from a loving God?

    Does the Apocrypha mean anything to you?

    None of the above are supported in the Bible - only taken out of extreme context - and I can provide evidence on request.

    In order to find TRUTH, you have to ask question about your OWN faith. I have already done that - and I'm satisfed with the answers.

    Thanks,

    WitnessofJah
     
  19. Ernestine

    Ernestine Member

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    Carrdero, I am a Jehovah's Witness and am sorry that you felt embarrassed by what occurred at the Memorial (of Jesus' death). When Jesus had his last meal with his apostles he entered into a covenant agreement with them that they would serve in heaven with him. He told them to keep doing this (evening meal) in remembrance of him. The actual partaking is only intended for those humans who are members of that anointed class, the 144,000 who know (because their spirit bears oneness with God) they have a heavenly calling. Think about it, the Bible says that the earth will remain forever. If everyone were to go to heaven, of what use would the earth be? Only a limited number of humans are required in heaven to serve in association with Christ over the new established Kingdom on earth, that we will see come to fruition in our lifetime.
     
  20. precept

    precept Member

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    How could you be so bold as to quote in the above, when it is only by tradition that your group teach that:

    1/.....Jesus has already returned. When He has not! Proof? Your 8000 are still here!

    2/.....Jesus is Satan's brother! When God said He had an Only Son!

    3/.....Only the 144,000 should partake of the communion. When Jesus Himself left the example to All His followers.....because He said that "as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup ye do show the Lord's death till He comes. 1 Corinthians 11:26
    Paul was addressing all Christians; Not 144,000! This means that all true Christians celebrate the Lord's death for the sin of humanity whenever they participate in the communion service.....ALL! that is; except for you and your group!

    You would do well to heed my previous warning. And to also look to your own admonition re "the traditions-the commandments of men".


    precept

     
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