10 outcomes on war with Iran

[Revoltingest]

Dubai is in a financial mess

Dubai given longer to pay back $2.5bn debt - Telegraph

This points out the futility of citing facts which are of little relevance, but may be in dispute.
The meat of the issue, ie, preemptive war with Iran, isn't about size of an economy or who
holds more per capita degrees.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is no compromise or rational debate with evil.

That strikes me as an attitude which serves evil itself.
We should call it meta-evil, eh?

Iran has admitted it uses political talks for the sole reason to buy time to accomplish it's goals. It has said it wants to wipe out Israel.

Source?

The majority of national intelligence agencys believe Iran is building a bomb. Case closed.

Not for me.

Keep in mind I am not suggesting an invasion only a limityed strike on it's nuclear facilities.

Oh, yeah....things always go as planned, in both the short & long run.
US & Israeli efforts over the last few decades have brought us the peace we....oh, wait....they didn't.

2.Agreed (there is a lot less typing involved in agreeing)
3.Agreed (ouch) nevermind.

Woo hoo! Detente!

You underestimate their resolve. I have read quotes from many islamic nations including Iran claiming they will wipe israel out even if it costs them millions of people. You have to take their words at face value in these cases you can't risk being nieve.

I think you misunderstand their intent.

Can you be more specific about these claims of our and Israels actions against Iran.

I already have, but I'll not revisit them. I don't think my research would change your mind.

I will say that I can understand why Iran wants a bomb (there are even probably some legitimate sounding reasons, I'm sure the drug dealer on the corner could invent some rational reasons he needs an UZI) but we should want them to not have one even more.

If a drug dealer has a self defense need, then I'll not begrudge his doing what makes sense.

I guess I should have asked you to write your (superior imagination generated) answer down. In some of your supposed solutions I can see the workings of that giant imagination of yours.

My imagination is too big to put into words, & too abominable to put into pictures.

All the trouble that Iran has recieved by our hands that I am awhare of is self induced. What is it about that country that makes you sympathetic. It is a very oppressive, radically idealogical place.

Israel has also has self-induced troubles, but this isn't really important.
My sympathies lie with people in general. Let's minimize death & woe wherever we can.
Oh, let's also keep my tax burden to a minimum too. Continual multiple failed wars scare
the hell out of my wallet. Loss of life is bad enuf, but I don't want to pay for it.

 

[Godobeyer]

You could be a wind talker, just when I think I know what you’re saying it slips away again. I’m not being insulting as English is probably not your primary language. English is my primary language and I cannot understand myself sometimes. If you will somehow communicate the fact that you want this to be the point from my list that will settle the issue I will thoroughly research it. Before you make up your mind I will warn you that some and maybe all of your statements above are likely incorrect but it's up to you.

English is not my primary language , it's third

don't focus in my english , focus in the almost meaning

 

[work in progress]

Prove this and I will respond to it. This is pure guesswork based it seems on more bias than facts.

Since Hal Lindsey came along with The Late Great Planet Earth almost 40 years ago, this passage in Zechariah has been interpreted by premillenialist end times fans as referring to present day Israel awaiting the Judgment:
Zechariah 13 (KJV)
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

and in the NIV:
8 In the whole land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

Only a liberal could suggest it immoral to kill a convicted murderer, and then fight for the right to kill an inoscent child.

Only a conservative could suggest that a death penalty is moral, when a rich defendant can turn a police department inside out, while a poor defendant's life relies on a public defender. And only a conservative could consider a fertilized egg to be -- a baby.

 

[1robin]

English is not my primary language , it's third

don't focus in my english , focus in the almost meaning

I like you Godobeyer but I can't understand what your specific point is, so I can't respond. Why should I focus on something that almost has meaning? Keep trying if you want though I would love to have a discussion of some sort or another.

 

[1robin]

Since Hal Lindsey came along with The Late Great Planet Earth almost 40 years ago, this passage in Zechariah has been interpreted by premillenialist end times fans as referring to present day Israel awaiting the Judgment:
Zechariah 13 (KJV)
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
and in the NIV:
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’"

You made the case that a prophesy exists but that was not the contentious part of your original claim and you know it. Prove that I or any other Christian is trying to make the apocalypse happen.

Only a conservative could suggest that a death penalty is moral, when a rich defendant can turn a police department inside out, while a poor defendant's life relies on a public defender. And only a conservative could consider a fertilized egg to be -- a baby.

As a preventative measure it is the only moral choice vs the immoral one of making innocent people support the criminal for the rest of his life or freeing him to kill again. I will admit that our justice system isn't perfect but it is the closest to it that can be devised. The guilty are given millions to fight their judgment from people that didn't commit the crime. If you are looking for a utopia of justice you won't find it on earth. You of course are aware of partial birth abortions and the thousands that are preformed when the fetus is much more than an egg, and so your response is incorrect as well as intellectually dishonest.

 

[1robin]

That strikes me as an attitude which serves evil itself.

We should call it meta-evil, eh?

I prefer to call it reality. Maybe meta-reality for compromise sake.

Source?

I actually heard an Iranian representative say it himself in an interview but I don't remember his name, I will see if it can be found however.

Not for me.

If true then why not?

Oh, yeah....things always go as planned, in both the short & long run.
US & Israeli efforts over the last few decades have brought us the peace we....oh, wait....they didn't.

So no justified resistance, righteous cause, or a preventative strike to save millions should be attempted because we don't know to the last detail what will happen, even though what will happen if nothing is done is fairly certain if history is an indicator. "If we do not head the events of history we are doomed to repeat them"
Original quote was butchered by 1robin

I think you misunderstand their intent.

I think that there is the least chance of my being wrong on this point than any other. Since becoming a Christian I have studied Islam in detail and their threat to and hatred of Israel is perfectly in agreement with the Quran and if they adhere to it they must bring on this showdown.

I already have, but I'll not revisit them. I don't think my research would change your mind.

Man I thought I was lazy. Just kidding.

If a drug dealer has a self-defense need, then I'll not begrudge his doing what makes sense.

I don't even know where to begin with this. You would do so even though it is almost certain that the weapon would far more likely to be used in unjustified violence than in justified defense.

My imagination is too big to put into words, & too abominable to put into pictures.

I imagine your estimation of your imagination is largely imaginary.

Israel has also has self-induced troubles, but this isn't really important.
My sympathies lie with people in general. Let's minimize death & woe wherever we can.
Oh, let's also keep my tax burden to a minimum too. Continual multiple failed wars scare
the hell out of my wallet. Loss of life is bad enough, but I don't want to pay for it.

And let’s invent a time machine, institute perfect justice, and start mass producing unicorns. Just kidding but all of your wishes above run contrary to our human failings so only a minimal return on those wishes can be expected.

 

[England my lionheart]

I was going to look that up for that fellow that posted that it was a biggest economy in the universe. I always thought that Dubai was a kind of bubble that was going to burst at some point. I knew they were rocking for a while but it didn't look like it was going to last, and neither will all that oil money and then it will be the stoneage again in the middle east except for Israel that doesn't have that much oil to begin with.

I agree,i feel for the people who invested and lost but anyway its off topic so i'll leave it there.

 

[England my lionheart]

This points out the futility of citing facts which are of little relevance, but may be in dispute.
The meat of the issue, ie, preemptive war with Iran, isn't about size of an economy or who
holds more per capita degrees.

Not futile at all,just helping a fellow poster with information.

 

[England my lionheart]

i don't think so because in this crisse financial only the western countries whom get in trouble , non of the other big financial like china and arab world get in trouble .

Its off topic so i won't respond,if you wish though you can open a thread and we can discuss it there.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not futile at all,just helping a fellow poster with information.

Helpful you certainly are.
The the fellow poster could've avoided correction by not bringing up irrelevant 'facts' in the first place.
The problem I lament is that arguments about issues often involve facts unrelated to the issues.
They're introduced because they make us feel comfortable with our position.

 

[Revoltingest]

I prefer to call it reality. Maybe meta-reality for compromise sake.
I actually heard an Iranian representative say it himself in an interview but I don't remember his name, I will see if it can be found however.
If true then why not?
So no justified resistance, righteous cause, or a preventative strike to save millions should be attempted because we don't know to the last detail what will happen, even though what will happen if nothing is done is fairly certain if history is an indicator. "If we do not head the events of history we are doomed to repeat them"
Original quote was butchered by 1robin
I think that there is the least chance of my being wrong on this point than any other. Since becoming a Christian I have studied Islam in detail and their threat to and hatred of Israel is perfectly in agreement with the Quran and if they adhere to it they must bring on this showdown.
Man I thought I was lazy. Just kidding.
I don't even know where to begin with this. You would do so even though it is almost certain that the weapon would far more likely to be used in unjustified violence than in unjustified defense.
I imagine your estimation of your imagination is largely imaginary.
And let’s invent a time machine, institute perfect justice, and start mass producing unicorns. Just kidding but all of your wishes above run contrary to our human failings so only a minimal return on those wishes can be expected.

I've nothing to say that I haven't already said, except that your interpretation of the Koran bespeaks
paranoia & violent religious conflict. Since I don't buy into religion, I cannot address that view.

 

[Sinful Hypocrite]

The efforts that are supposed to help stop a nuclear weapon being used are causing more problems than any of those nations who are targeted, just because they are doing the same as everyone else has already. Build a Bomb.

The US made the only use of them and still feels perfectly justified in it.I know, I have said it was wrong to many and they act as if there was no wrong in using them.

The real issue lies in educating people that no one is going to benefit by their use.

 

[work in progress]

You made the case that a prophesy exists but that was not the contentious part of your original claim and you know it. Prove that I or any other Christian is trying to make the apocalypse happen.

You see...I really don't give a you-know-what about what your particular brand believes about Israel and the end time prophecies, because your passionate 100% acceptance of the hardline attitude of pushing more Jews in/and pushing more Arabs out of Israel and the Occupied Territories, puts you in the same boat as Christian Zionist fanatic churches who collect money to build more Jewish settlements and lobby both their own government and the Israeli government, not to give up any land taken, and make no concessions in any sort of legitimate peace process.

But the craziest crackpots on the Christian Right are the ones who support the Third Temple Movement -- that wants to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque and build the Third Temple in its place....gee, I'll bet that will really work out smoothly...

I've had this article in my documents for a few years. It is written by an obviously non-dispensational Christian writer or theologian who believes that Christian Zionism is heresy. I have no dog in that fight, but for the purposes of analysis, the writer does a very good job of identifying the players in modern Evangelical Christianity that have created the Christian Zionist Movement in America, and the extremely dangerous consequences it could lead to if no American leader grows the stones to push back against them or the ultra-right orthodox Jews in Israel that have taken effective control of their government:

7. Conclusions
It has been shown that the Christian belief in, and support for, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple arises generally from a premillennial eschatology and specifically from the novel dispensational distinction between Israel and the Church combined with, and arising from, an ultra-literalist and futurist hermeneutic. On the basis of allegedly unfulfilled Old and New Testament predictions, Christian Zionists are convinced that a third Temple will be built in place of, or near, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. They are also convinced that a Jewish priesthood will once again offer sacrifices and offerings. They also believe this yet to be built Temple will be desecrated by the Antichrist and replaced by a fourth Millennial Temple.

It has been shown that this conviction and the hermeneutic upon which it is based is flawed because it fails to recognise how Jesus Christ interprets, completes, and fulfils the role of the Temple with its sacrificial system. The Temple, and the Tabernacle before it, were indeed the places where God dwelt with his people and where their sin could be atoned for by sacrifice. The New Testament reveals how the Temple was, however, an illustration172 a copy173 and shadow174

for the atoning work of Jesus Christ who now dwells on earth by the Holy Spirit. The Temple therefore finds its ultimate significance and fulfilment not in another man-made sanctuary but in Jesus Christ who is in heaven and in his Church on earth.175​

The Book of Revelation expressly says that one day the two will be united and the Lord will dwell with his people and have no need of a Temple.176

​

The Christian Zionist preoccupation, therefore, with locating the site of the Temple, with training priests, breeding red heifers and funding the Temple Treasury is at best a distraction from the gospel imperative and at worst promoting apostasy177​

Christian support for the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple is also invariably linked to the political claims of exclusive Jewish sovereignty over not only the Temple Mount and Jerusalem but much of the Middle East as well. Whether intentionally or otherwise, therefore, Christian Zionists are complicit in perpetuating a form of apartheid as well as the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories. Many regard this reading of history as questionable, coloured by a literal exegesis of highly selective biblical passages, profoundly misguided and essentially racist. Far from demonstrating a ministry of reconciliation to all nations, which is at the heart of the Christian faith, Zionism perpetuates religious intolerance and incites ethnic violence. Fuelled by a fatalistic conviction of an imminent apocalyptic war, Christian Zionists are indeed, 'anxious for Armageddon.'178
The Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Christian Zionism

As a preventative measure it is the only moral choice vs the immoral one of making innocent people support the criminal for the rest of his life or freeing him to kill again. I will admit that our justice system isn't perfect but it is the closest to it that can be devised. The guilty are given millions to fight their judgment from people that didn't commit the crime. If you are looking for a utopia of justice you won't find it on earth. You of course are aware of partial birth abortions and the thousands that are preformed when the fetus is much more than an egg, and so your response is incorrect as well as intellectually dishonest.

I wasn't interested in responding to the bloody shirt abortion arguments here, as it is off-topic, but I'll follow it elsewhere whenever I have the time.

 

[1robin]

You see...I really don't give a you-know-what about what your particular brand believes about Israel and the end time prophecies, because your passionate 100% acceptance of the hardline attitude of pushing more Jews in/and pushing more Arabs out of Israel and the Occupied Territories, puts you in the same boat as Christian Zionist fanatic churches who collect money to build more Jewish settlements and lobby both their own government and the Israeli government, not to give up any land taken, and make no concessions in any sort of legitimate peace process.

But the craziest crackpots on the Christian Right are the ones who support the Third Temple Movement -- that wants to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque and build the Third Temple in its place....gee, I'll bet that will really work out smoothly...

I've had this article in my documents for a few years. It is written by an obviously non-dispensational Christian writer or theologian who believes that Christian Zionism is heresy. I have no dog in that fight, but for the purposes of analysis, the writer does a very good job of identifying the players in modern Evangelical Christianity that have created the Christian Zionist Movement in America, and the extremely dangerous consequences it could lead to if no American leader grows the stones to push back against them or the ultra-right orthodox Jews in Israel that have taken effective control of their government:

7. Conclusions
​

It has been shown that the Christian belief in, and support for, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple arises generally from a premillennial eschatology and specifically from the novel dispensational distinction between Israel and the Church combined with, and arising from, an ultra-literalist and futurist hermeneutic. On the basis of allegedly unfulfilled Old and New Testament predictions, Christian Zionists are convinced that a third Temple will be built in place of, or near, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. They are also convinced that a Jewish priesthood will once again offer sacrifices and offerings. They also believe this yet to be built Temple will be desecrated by the Antichrist and replaced by a fourth Millennial Temple.

It has been shown that this conviction and the hermeneutic upon which it is based is flawed because it fails to recognise how Jesus Christ interprets, completes, and fulfils the role of the Temple with its sacrificial system. The Temple, and the Tabernacle before it, were indeed the places where God dwelt with his people and where their sin could be atoned for by sacrifice. The New Testament reveals how the Temple was, however, an illustration172 a copy173 and shadow174

for the atoning work of Jesus Christ who now dwells on earth by the Holy Spirit. The Temple therefore finds its ultimate significance and fulfilment not in another man-made sanctuary but in Jesus Christ who is in heaven and in his Church on earth.175
​

The Book of Revelation expressly says that one day the two will be united and the Lord will dwell with his people and have no need of a Temple.176

​

The Christian Zionist preoccupation, therefore, with locating the site of the Temple, with training priests, breeding red heifers and funding the Temple Treasury is at best a distraction from the gospel imperative and at worst promoting apostasy177
​

Christian support for the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple is also invariably linked to the political claims of exclusive Jewish sovereignty over not only the Temple Mount and Jerusalem but much of the Middle East as well. Whether intentionally or otherwise, therefore, Christian Zionists are complicit in perpetuating a form of apartheid as well as the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories. Many regard this reading of history as questionable, coloured by a literal exegesis of highly selective biblical passages, profoundly misguided and essentially racist. Far from demonstrating a ministry of reconciliation to all nations, which is at the heart of the Christian faith, Zionism perpetuates religious intolerance and incites ethnic violence. Fuelled by a fatalistic conviction of an imminent apocalyptic war, Christian Zionists are indeed, 'anxious for Armageddon.'178
The Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Christian Zionism



I wasn't interested in responding to the bloody shirt abortion arguments here, as it is off-topic, but I'll follow it elsewhere whenever I have the time.

Man this is some wild stuff. I will amend my original claim and say that the vast overwhelming number of Christians don't really understand end time prophesy anyway and most of the ones that do have no desire see armegedom and would not think about doing anything to hasten it. Most like me look at modern history and view the Jews as a somewhat honorable democractic nation in the middle of a sea of dishonorable psychotic ones bent on their distruction and 98% of the history since 1948 fits that narrative. Have you factored in the fact that islam has an endtime prophesy that predicts the destruction of israel by the (12th imam) I believe which is what Akmajinidad (or whatever his name is) said his pupose was to bring on the scene.

 

[1robin]

The efforts that are supposed to help stop a nuclear weapon being used are causing more problems than any of those nations who are targeted, just because they are doing the same as everyone else has already. Build a Bomb.

The US made the only use of them and still feels perfectly justified in it.I know, I have said it was wrong to many and they act as if there was no wrong in using them.

The real issue lies in educating people that no one is going to benefit by their use.

Could you give examples of what is going wrong now with the prevention efforts that is worse than a nuclear explosion wiping out hundreds of thousands.

 

[work in progress]

Man this is some wild stuff. I will amend my original claim and say that the vast overwhelming number of Christians don't really understand end time prophesy anyway and most of the ones that do have no desire see armegedom and would not think about doing anything to hasten it. Most like me look at modern history and view the Jews as a somewhat honorable democractic nation in the middle of a sea of dishonorable psychotic ones bent on their distruction and 98% of the history since 1948 fits that narrative.

The problem is that, with so many today adopting the basic aspects of Christian Zionism -- namely that the modern State of Israel, founded in 1948 is part of prophecy, that means funding the building of more settlements, pushing Israel to take more land, and refuse land-for-peace strategies to find a way to some sort of agreement. They don't have to be in the Temple Movement itself to be pushing the world closer to nuclear war.

Have you factored in the fact that islam has an endtime prophesy that predicts the destruction of israel by the (12th imam) I believe which is what Akmajinidad (or whatever his name is) said his pupose was to bring on the scene.

I've heard that - especially Shia Islam - emphasizes their own end time beliefs, but Ahmadinejad -- who is quoted claiming to have seen the "Hidden Imam" or something, is not actually running Iran, and the experts on Iran have been trying to tell us that for years! Now, that Ahmadinejad is being pushed further and further from having any real power, we aren't hearing as much about what he says or what he does.

I still see the big problem here as the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, which had built itself up to gargantuan scale during the Cold War, went looking for new enemies to fight once the Cold War had ended. So, I see a lot of the saber-rattling with Iran and other Muslim nations as a large, wealthy collection of interests that will always be pushing for new wars to fight....until the U.S. Government goes bankrupt....and then that will be the final end of this trillion dollar make work project....if they don't blow up the world first!

 

[1robin]

The problem is that, with so many today adopting the basic aspects of Christian Zionism -- namely that the modern State of Israel, founded in 1948 is part of prophecy, that means funding the building of more settlements, pushing Israel to take more land, and refuse land-for-peace strategies to find a way to some sort of agreement. They don't have to be in the Temple Movement itself to be pushing the world closer to nuclear war.

The jewish nation was established in 1948 without any reference from scripture for mans part anyway. It was ratified by the UN which doesn't support a Christian or Jewish (religous) worldview.
On a graph plotting Jewish concessions vs. Arabic violence. After every instance of Israel giving land or concessions there is a spike of Arabic violence. Now the world is telling them to give more of the 1/6 of 1% only to get attacked for the effort. They have already given back the majority of the land they conquored after they were attacked by all their neibors at once.
What is it that drives nations that controls 99.9% of the land mass and all the great natural resources to start and embarrassingly loose 4 wars and many battles? Is there any conceivable honorable reason, or is it spiritual, jealousy, or just plain (racist hatred).

I've heard that - especially Shia Islam - emphasizes their own end time beliefs, but Ahmadinejad -- who is quoted claiming to have seen the "Hidden Imam" or something, is not actually running Iran, and the experts on Iran have been trying to tell us that for years! Now, that Ahmadinejad is being pushed further and further from having any real power, we aren't hearing as much about what he says or what he does.

The ones pushing him down are just as bad if not worse than him. If you want I will post you dozens of quotes from islamic leaders generally saying Israel cannot be allowed to exist even if it takes a million lives and a thousand years

I still see the big problem here as the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, which had built itself up to gargantuan scale during the Cold War, went looking for new enemies to fight once the Cold War had ended. So, I see a lot of the saber-rattling with Iran and other Muslim nations as a large, wealthy collection of interests that will always be pushing for new wars to fight....until the U.S. Government goes bankrupt....and then that will be the final end of this trillion dollar make work project....if they don't blow up the world first!

So the homeowner who buys a 12 gauge is at fault for killing the burgler who broke into his house. I was in the military and never saw any indication of what you assert but will admit the U.S. is not perfect by a long shot. The world itself would have been overun by tyrany and oppression in WW1 and WW2 and the cold war if not for our military complex as you call it. "The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing" (or reduce their military complex and politically correct their will away)

 

[work in progress]

The jewish nation was established in 1948 without any reference from scripture for mans part anyway. It was ratified by the UN which doesn't support a Christian or Jewish (religous) worldview.

That's right; and the Zionist Movement of Theodore Herzl was focused on Jews - as a people - having their own nation, not on any religious implications. In fact, during the 19th Century, it's likely that the majority of the religious leaders were opposed to Zionism because they believed that religious Jews were supposed to wait until the Messiah arrived and led the people to the Promised Land....and some are still waiting! There still are small communities of ultra-orthodox Jews that believe the modern state of Israel is interfering with divine providence.

The problem is that if you create a nation for one specific ethnic group, it cannot be a truly secular democratic state. Israel was able to deal with this paradox before the 67 Six Day War, because the Israeli Arab population was less than 10% of the total population. But, as Israel's Arab minority has grown, and the State occupied land...and is indicating that they are consolidating their gains in the West Bank, and will continue to do so with more and more settlements...the mask of equality falls off completely! No one can even pretend that an Israeli Arab today has the same rights as an Israeli Jew, or even a Jew living anywhere in the world who wants to take advantage of the Aliyah, for that matter. Today, like it or not...regardless of whether you think Arabs are humans or something like the Orcs in the Lord of the Rings books, there is no escaping the fact that modern Israel is an apartheid state!

On a graph plotting Jewish concessions vs. Arabic violence. After every instance of Israel giving land or concessions there is a spike of Arabic violence. Now the world is telling them to give more of the 1/6 of 1% only to get attacked for the effort. They have already given back the majority of the land they conquored after they were attacked by all their neibors at once.
What is it that drives nations that controls 99.9% of the land mass and all the great natural resources to start and embarrassingly loose 4 wars and many battles? Is there any conceivable honorable reason, or is it spiritual, jealousy, or just plain (racist hatred).

I hardly pay attention anymore whenever there's a story about something bad happening in Israel or Palestine. From the outside, things look so bad and dystopian, that I don't see a future Israeli government being able to make a peace agreement, any more than the competing leaders of the Palestinians.

It's worth noting that Jewish, Catholic and Orthodox Christian minorities, along with Druze, Samaritans (yes they actually exist!), had communities that continued on for centuries in the Middle East for centuries -- through the reigns of various Caliphs until the last one - the Ottoman Turks. During that long stretch of time, there certainly were conflicts and violent outbreaks, but it's not until after WWI and the European Colonization that we get the Arab nationalism and the competing Islamic movements rising up, and ethnically cleansing Jews and many other minorities throughout the Arab World. If I was going to pick one thing that set an inevitable and irreconcilable conflict in motion, it would have been Lord Balfour secretly promising the entire Palestine Mandate to both the local Palestinian Arabs and the Jews before the War ended.

So the homeowner who buys a 12 gauge is at fault for killing the burgler who broke into his house.

Yes he is if his life is not at risk! It's another topic, but if there's one stupid conservative dogma that our Conservative Government better not include from their U.S. advisers it's these crazy "Castle" laws or "stand your ground" laws, that have legalized murder. Even if you don't have a gun, you still don't have the right to kill a burglar or a robber, once you have disabled or disarmed your attacker, or escaped from your attacker. There have been cases up here where store-owners fled from a robber to a back room and came back with a shotgun...and ended up charged with manslaughter, because they didn't give the thief the opportunity to surrender or flee the scene. I would rather go in that direction than the presumption that anyone on your property without invitation can be killed and no investigation required. I would suspect that any prospective thieves and robbers in states like Florida, Arizona or Louisiana, are going to come in armed and kill first, if they have the opportunity. All this B.S. about everyone having a gun and running around armed to defend themselves at all times, ignores the fact that most of these gun-owners have no military or related training to know how to use a gun in such a situation.

I was in the military and never saw any indication of what you assert but will admit the U.S. is not perfect by a long shot. The world itself would have been overun by tyrany and oppression in WW1 and WW2 and the cold war if not for our military complex as you call it. "The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing" (or reduce their military complex and politically correct their will away)

And what about after the Cold War ended? The presumption used to be that military was supposed to be there for defensive purposes, but after the War, the Military Industrial Complex created had many incentives to create new opportunities for conflict to justify the direct military spending and all the billions handed over to the defense contractors. Much of the problem the U.S. & allies had with the proxy wars with the Soviet Union was because the U.S. was defending despots and U.S. business interests (commercial imperialism), while the Soviets had the less expensive option of providing guns and logistic support to revolutionary groups that were fighting for agrarian reform against landowners who virtually owned all the wealth and controlled the governments. There were a lot of conflicts - especially throughout Latin America that were presented as 'fighting against communism' in the U.S. media, when they were in reality - defending the interests of the banana companies and the local landowners....hence the term - "Banana Republic."

 

[1robin]

That's right; and the Zionist Movement of Theodore Herzl was focused on Jews - as a people - having their own nation, not on any religious implications. In fact, during the 19th Century, it's likely that the majority of the religious leaders were opposed to Zionism because they believed that religious Jews were supposed to wait until the Messiah arrived and led the people to the Promised Land....and some are still waiting! There still are small communities of ultra-orthodox Jews that believe the modern state of Israel is interfering with divine providence.

The problem is that if you create a nation for one specific ethnic group, it cannot be a truly secular democratic state. Israel was able to deal with this paradox before the 67 Six Day War, because the Israeli Arab population was less than 10% of the total population. But, as Israel's Arab minority has grown, and the State occupied land...and is indicating that they are consolidating their gains in the West Bank, and will continue to do so with more and more settlements...the mask of equality falls off completely! No one can even pretend that an Israeli Arab today has the same rights as an Israeli Jew, or even a Jew living anywhere in the world who wants to take advantage of the Aliyah, for that matter. Today, like it or not...regardless of whether you think Arabs are humans or something like the Orcs in the Lord of the Rings books, there is no escaping the fact that modern Israel is an apartheid state!

I hardly pay attention anymore whenever there's a story about something bad happening in Israel or Palestine. From the outside, things look so bad and dystopian, that I don't see a future Israeli government being able to make a peace agreement, any more than the competing leaders of the Palestinians.

It's worth noting that Jewish, Catholic and Orthodox Christian minorities, along with Druze, Samaritans (yes they actually exist!), had communities that continued on for centuries in the Middle East for centuries -- through the reigns of various Caliphs until the last one - the Ottoman Turks. During that long stretch of time, there certainly were conflicts and violent outbreaks, but it's not until after WWI and the European Colonization that we get the Arab nationalism and the competing Islamic movements rising up, and ethnically cleansing Jews and many other minorities throughout the Arab World. If I was going to pick one thing that set an inevitable and irreconcilable conflict in motion, it would have been Lord Balfour secretly promising the entire Palestine Mandate to both the local Palestinian Arabs and the Jews before the War ended.

Yes he is if his life is not at risk! It's another topic, but if there's one stupid conservative dogma that our Conservative Government better not include from their U.S. advisers it's these crazy "Castle" laws or "stand your ground" laws, that have legalized murder. Even if you don't have a gun, you still don't have the right to kill a burglar or a robber, once you have disabled or disarmed your attacker, or escaped from your attacker. There have been cases up here where store-owners fled from a robber to a back room and came back with a shotgun...and ended up charged with manslaughter, because they didn't give the thief the opportunity to surrender or flee the scene. I would rather go in that direction than the presumption that anyone on your property without invitation can be killed and no investigation required. I would suspect that any prospective thieves and robbers in states like Florida, Arizona or Louisiana, are going to come in armed and kill first, if they have the opportunity. All this B.S. about everyone having a gun and running around armed to defend themselves at all times, ignores the fact that most of these gun-owners have no military or related training to know how to use a gun in such a situation.

I was really admireing your knowledge until this point. The burglar who invades your house has given away anyrights he has that is why we have these laws. The evil done by wrongful shootings are a drop in the bucket compared with the evil done when justice has lost it's will to insist on itself. The number one deterent to a robber is the armed status or defensive capability of his target. There are many statistics which show a sharp drop in crime where there are high percentages of armed citizens. Do you ever think there is anything wrong with the way you think when you defend the guilty and condemn the victim. In my faith (which I am not suggesting you believe) the bible says that in the end times people will call wrong right and right wrong. Based on your stance above I doubt if I could change your mind. A liberal is 10 times more commited to being wrong than a conservative is to being right. Just kidding (mostly).

And what about after the Cold War ended? The presumption used to be that military was supposed to be there for defensive purposes, but after the War, the Military Industrial Complex created had many incentives to create new opportunities for conflict to justify the direct military spending and all the billions handed over to the defense contractors. Much of the problem the U.S. & allies had with the proxy wars with the Soviet Union was because the U.S. was defending despots and U.S. business interests (commercial imperialism), while the Soviets had the less expensive option of providing guns and logistic support to revolutionary groups that were fighting for agrarian reform against landowners who virtually owned all the wealth and controlled the governments. There were a lot of conflicts - especially throughout Latin America that were presented as 'fighting against communism' in the U.S. media, when they were in reality - defending the interests of the banana companies and the local landowners....hence the term - "Banana Republic."

I can only make a general comment that our armed forces are the most just and professional in the world. I cannot speak for the politicians quite as highly but in general we act with benevolent intentions but there are malevolent isolated events as well. I have completely lost track of your overall stance so I have decided to not make a decision about your point of view other than what I have as, much of it sounds very knowledgeable.

Selah