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Featured 10 laughably erroneous claims of the bible

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Maximilian

    Maximilian Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.

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    If I may, do you have ASD?
     
  2. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    One must note that you didn't actually offer any 'corrections.'
     
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  3. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    "It's a common misconception that imagery, or vivid descriptive language, is a kind of figurative language. In fact, writers can use figurative language as one tool to help create imagery, but imagery does not have to use figurative language."
     
  4. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Active Member

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    I am in no way a defender of the unreasonable, but some of the problems cited in the OP stem from an over-literal reading of the text, and sometimes a poor rendering of the original language into English vernacular.

    For instance, the stars falling to earth. The ancients knew nothing about the size of stars and comets. To them, comets were just stars falling to earth.
     
    #184 Wandering Monk, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  5. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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  6. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    You joke, but on this very forum, I count about 5 folks that do, in fact, seem to be using the bible as a science book.
     
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  7. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I expect too much of infallible omniscient beings, but it seems to me that if the bible were 'inspired' by the God of the bible, and this God had the attributes claimed by biblical scholars and the like, then there shouldn't have to be such a lengthy debate about what the bible tales actually mean.

    Unless, of course, they were just written by fallible men with lots of superstitious, numeologist-type beliefs and little actual knowledge of the world. But evangelicals and the like assure humanity that this is not the case.
     
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  8. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    But this should (and does) lead to problems for the "literalists" and the biblical inerrant-ists.
     
  9. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Oooooh! ZING! That is one witty rejoinder!
     
  10. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

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    Disagreed. One citizen, one vote...unless you believe the conspiracy theories. :D

    The sad fact is that talk is cheap. While young people are more liberal and less religious than older people and outnumber them, older people actually show up to vote more often than younger people. Yes, there is a disproportionate influence, but it's from laziness, not a vast, wide conspiracy.

    Behind the 2018 U.S. Midterm Election Turnout
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    That is about how many backed the ayatollahs in their takeover of Iran.
     
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  12. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Kind of what I meant re: disproportionate influence. Spineless politicians go where the votes are. Look at the orange menace - thrice divorced serial philanderer, money-woshipping con - says he is a Christian, and wraps up the Evangelical vote. Not conspiracy at all - a reality. They will talk up their anti-abortion cred to solidify the Jesus-vote, even as they dicker and deal to enrich themselves at the expense of the poor and working class.

    The only conspiracy I am aware of with regards to voting is the concerted effort the right has undertaken to convince the gullible that there is massive voter fraud going on across the country, and the democrats are behind it. And that is a real conspiracy, not a kooky 'aliens poisoned my drinking water' sort of thing. Maybe not even a conspiracy because they do it right in the open.
     
  13. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

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    No doubt some felt that way but don't forget to consider that the choice was down to two deplorables; Hillary and Trump. Obviously many felt Trump was the less deplorable. The best thing he'll have ever done for this nation is destroyed the Hillary corruption machine. Now if only he'd drop dead or resign, we could all be happy. :)
     
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  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Passive aggressive attacks will get you nowhere, particularly as a ploy to save face and get out of the little corner you've been backed into.

    Hopefully, next time our exchange will be less disturbing. :shrug:

    .
     
    #194 Skwim, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  15. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    The same can be said of your lackluster response to it.

    But at least I wasn't trying to be witty to begin with.
     
  16. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    As you and many others imply, we are all free to call any of it figurative or literal at our individual discretion and according to no rule other than individual whim.

    He didn't seem angry or bitter to me, just derisive. Did you feel personally mocked?

    His opinions were about ideas, not about the people who believe them. I hold those same opinions, but hold no ill will for you, for example. My choice to embrace Christianity was a mistake for me, but I'm not angry at you about it.

    Atheists have a legitimate complaint against Christianity. Atheists don't need to visit any source more hostile than the Christian scriptures to discover the hate speech Christians are taught in their churches.

    Have you seen the hateful scriptures that depict unbelievers as lying, corrupt, vile, abominable, wicked, godless vessels in the service of darkness and evil, not one of which does any good, and fit to be burned alive forever as the moral equivalent of murderers and whoremongers, and the declared enemy of a good god? Would you like to?

    [1] "The fool says in his heart,'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good" - Psalm 14:1

    [2] "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and all and the enemy of a good god." - Revelation 21:8

    [3]"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"- 2 Corinthians 6:14

    [4] Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ." - 1 John 2:22

    [5] "Whoever is not with me is against me" - Luke 11:23

    [6] “Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” - 1 Timothy 5:8

    [7] "They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you" – 1 Peter 4:4

    How should unbelievers feel about the book that maligns them like this for no better reason than not drinking the Kool-Aid? Were you expecting affection or respect for that book?

    As I indicated, this list didn't come from any web site. I compiled it myself from my years on message boards being shown scripture by believers. Every time I saw another atheophobic one, I added it to the list and revised the summary. Number [7] was added this year when I saw it on a RF post from a Christian. That's where I learn about Christianity today - directly from Christians whether on message boards or in the news. We have two religious scandals playing out locally now here in Mexico near Guadalajara. A local Protestant clergyman that heads a huge, international mega-church was arrested in Los Angeles for pedophilia, and a priest made an outrageous comment minimizing rape.

    As I just demonstrated, the faith has declared itself my enemy. It declared war on unbelievers millennia ago for no good reason. Being depicted as immoral has made the lives of atheists more difficult and dangerous. We have every right to do whatever we can to diminish the influence of such a malicious institution.

    upload_2019-6-17_12-13-36.jpeg upload_2019-6-17_12-14-22.jpeg upload_2019-6-17_12-14-42.jpeg

    This came from an American president, who was obviously never my president or my fellow anything:
    • "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."- American President George H. W. Bush
    Now there's a Christian I detested, but not for being Christian - for being a bigot.

    How about this beautiful product of Christianity?
    • "Settle it therefore in your minds, as a maxim never to be effaced or forgotten, that atheism is an inhuman, bloody, ferocious system, equally hostile to every useful restraint and to every virtuous affection; that, leaving nothing above us to excite awe, nor round us to awaken tenderness, it wages war with heaven and with earth: its first object is to dethrone God, its next to destroy man." - Rev. Robert Hall
    And the result of this bigotry? Once, atheists were executed for unbelief. Then came secular government and church-state separation. Nevertheless, until recently, atheists were considered unfit to teach, coach, adopt, or serve on a jury, and they still have difficulty getting elected if they run as atheists.

    Here's where we stand today:

    NEW REPORT CASTS ATHEISTS AS "OTHERS" BEYOND MORALITY AND COMMUNITY IN AMERICA
    freethoughtassociation.org -&nbspThis website is for sale! -&nbspcenter for inquiry michigan freethought atheists atheism freethinkers humanism humanists agnosticism Resources and Information.

    "Atheists have become the ultimate scapegoats in our culture... but the news isn't all bad! A new study by the University of Minnesota Department of Sociology has found that Americans perceive Atheists as the group least likely to embrace common values and a shared vision of society. Worse yet, Atheists are identified as the cohort other Americans do not want to see their offspring marrying.


    [snip]



    "Researchers concluded: "Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." Disturbingly, Atheists are "seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public," despite being only 3% of the U.S. population according to Dr. Edgell, associate sociology professor and the lead researcher in the project.
    "

    We are largely honest, hard-working, law-abiding people trying to raise our families properly and make our communities better. Your church is way out of line, and atheists have every right to fight back. For believers to criticize unbelievers for finally having a platform and a voice to answer back is like a thief running to the police when his mugging victim takes his gun from him and aims it back at him, or a hunter complaining when his prey gores him, as if both acts were undeserved and unprovoked.

    Perhaps it was. So what? Is the institution I just described not worthy of at least that? The anti-theist takes the opportunity to weaken the Christian case wherever he can.

    Once the church has diminished in stature and cultural hegemony to the point that it can no longer marginalize and demonize decent people, it will at last become a good neighbor, and we probably won't think about it again. How often do you think about the Druids, who once were a powerful force, but today, have no influence in the lives of those not choosing Druidry. What does the Celtic goddess Brigitte think about theists?

    Yeah, me neither, and isn't that the way it should be?

    You think that being an atheist is a harmful deficit? Christianity was harmful to me because it taught that faith-based thought was a virtue, and I allowed faith to damage me. Atheism remedied that.

    What do you think that your religion has to offer a person that feels grounded, centered, purposeful, and satisfied with life? I'm not looking to follow anybody but myself, and I have no unmet need without religion for religion to meet.

    What peace of Christ?

    May you open to rational,skeptical, empirical thought.
     

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  17. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    The earth is described both as a circle and a four-cornered shape, both with edges, immobile, resting on pillars, the sun and stars embedded in a solid, hemispheric firmament circling under it to rise again, as well as separating the waters and heavens above it from the earth below. This is one of several similar renderings of biblical cosmology

    [​IMG]


    Why do you suppose that the pictures shown at the link above all look more or less like the above if this is not what the artists drawing them understand the scripture to be saying?

    Consider Matthew 4:8 - Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

    That's not possible with a spherical earth, but it is with a flat earth as depicted above.

    And there is all of this:
    • Isaiah 11:12 - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.
    • Job 38:13 - That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
    • Jeremiah 16:19 - O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
    • Daniel 4:11 - The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH
    • Isaiah 40:22 - He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.
    This was believed literally because it was once believable. The earth seems flat, fixed, and immobile, and centered within the sphere of heavenly bodies orbiting it.

    You're not guessing? Why can't it be you that is confused?

    I say that the biblical cosmology described above was taught as if it were fact until it was learned that it is wrong, and is now being claimed to be a metaphor, because most believers simply do not allow themselves to see error in scripture. I say that this take is much more likely to be the case than implying that they knew their model was wrong, but presented it anyway.

    When a person uses a metaphor, he knows what the metaphor stands for. @The Reverend Bob 's link gave "her lips are a blooming rose" as an example of a metaphor. The blooming rose stands for her lips, and clearly, the author knows that.

    What is this cosmology a metaphor for? The truth? If so, how does that differ from an error, which is the word for a story not thought to stand for anythinng, but rather, is thought to be true, yet is incorrect?

    Then that makes them useless as prophecies, doesn't it? What is the purpose or value of a prophecy? In the Bible, they're intended to be evidence of divine prescience and divine authorship of the prophecy. If they're mere poetry, they can't accomplish that goal when critical thinking is employed.

    Another use for a prophecy is to provide useful information in advance of an event, such as a forecast of rain that warns you to take an umbrella, but biblical prophecy is never this. It is not useful to forecast any specific event at any specific time. Look at all the people giving away their worldly possessions based on some specific date and time assigned to a biblical prophecy.

    For a prophecy to be convincing that it represents knowledge not normally available to any human, it must be what is called high-quality prophecy,

    [a] High quality prophecy needs to be specific, detailed and unambiguous. Optimally, the time and place are specified.

    It also needs to prophecy something unexpected, unlikely or unique - something that was not self-fulfilling and could not have been contrived or easily guessed.

    [c] High quality prophecy must be accurate and unaccompanied by failed prophecies

    [d] The prophecies must be verified that they came before the event predicted, and that they were fulfilled completely.

    Biblical prophecy doesn't rise to this standard. It is no better than what palm readers, spiritual mediums, and professional psychics do - what they call cold readings: "I see somebody whose name begins with A, and she is near water." "That must be Aunt Esther, who loved to water her garden." It's a verbal Rorschach test, and demonstrates no superhuman quality.

    Here's what you need to be convincing. It's fiction - from a movie some years back called Frequency, in which Dennis Quaid's character’s son contacts his father from his father's future by ham radio. To convince his father that he, the son, really is calling his father from his father's future - from 1998 back to 1969 - the son discusses the outcome of game five of what is for the father the as-yet unfinished 1969 World Series, which the father is watching live in 1969 on TV in a local pub

    "Well, game five was the big one. It turned in the bottom of the 6th. We were down 3-0. Cleon Jones gets hit on the foot - left a scuff mark on the ball. Clendenon comes up. The count goes to 2 and 2. High fastball. He nailed it. Weis slammed a solo shot in the 7th to tie. Jones and Swoboda scored in the 8th. We won, Pop."

    Then the father watches it happen on TV. Once tricks like a tape delay and replay of an already finished game are ruled out, that's convincing, unlike vague, poetic scriptural predictions.

    Perfect example of a vague passage neither useful for anything and not persuasive. Compare it to the Frequency excerpt.

    Faith is the willingness to believe with insufficient supporting evidence, or what I just called guessing. It's a logical error. With reason, 2 + 2 only equals 4. This is what faith does to reason:
    • “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa
    That's a very poor way to think.

    That's also a logical error. It may be true, but you have unjustifiably eliminated other logical possibilities. By reason, we understand that we do not know if gods exist. Our list of candidate hypotheses for the origin of the universe should have a naturalistic option.

    Less than a rarity. Impossibility. This is one of the unkept promises of Christianity, like Jesus returning before the present generation dies off. I assure you that this is false.

    That's too simple an assessment. The words were probably believed when written - so they're not lies, just wrong and therefore not useful.

    Is that a bad thing to you? Faith is also what the believers at Jonestown and Waco had. That's a bad thing to me.

    Reason is mine. I can't find a use for faith.

    Yeah, we see that one a lot as well as metaphor. But my answer is the same to the apologist calling mythology allegory. Allegory of what? Calling a myth an allegory presumes that its writers knew that no such thing had happened and that they were creating an account with a hidden meaning - perhaps political or moral.

    As you undoubtedly know, Gulliver's Travels is an allegory, meaning that its author, Swift, realized that he was writing fiction intended to make a political statement about contemporary England in which each element of the allegory represents something from history known to the author.

    "One clear example of Swift's use of political allegory is the Rope Dancers, who are Lilliputians seeking employment in the government, All candidates are asked to dance on the rope and whoever jumps the highest without falling is offered a high office . Very often the current ministers are asked to dance to show their skills . For instance, Flimnap, the treasurer, is required to dance on a tight rope to show his superiority to other in this respect.

    "This jumping game may sound innocent to the children, however, politically its significance is far from innocent. Obviously, Swift makes a satire on the way in which political offices were distributed among the candidates by George I. Flimnap stands for Sir Robert Walpole the prime minister of England. Dancing on a tight rope symbolizes Walpole's skill in parliamentary tactics and political intrigues. In general, Swift wants to infer that England's system is arbitrary and corrupted." Political Allegory In Gulliver's Travels

    That's allegory. The Genesis creation story and the flood story are not allegories or metaphors, which require that their source understands what the elements in the story actually stand for.
     
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  18. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Neither. You've turned in place. That defines a point, the center of circular-appearing horizon

    Apparently, everybody is free to call any part of the scripture literal or figurative with as much (or little) authority as anybody else. The words mean whatever one wants them to mean.

    That's not obvious to me. I call things that walk on the ground terrestrial life, not insects. And I call four-legged creatures tetrapods, also not insects.

    The firmament is not an expanse. It is a solid dome separating earth's atmosphere from heaven, which is why that dome appears in most of the diagrams of biblical cosmology.

    How many times have you seen that done elsewhere - a circumference and a diameter specified, but not of the same circle, and that not being explicitly stated? Nowhere, in my experience. That's how feasible that is.
     
  19. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Not everybody thinks the Bible/Tanach was written by infallible omniscient beings.

    If you do I can understand your disappointment.
     
  20. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll give it a shot.. but these are pretty lame.. not much of a challenge.
    1. The passage does not claim the earth is flat. The atmosphere has been called a "canopy" for millennia.
    2. Foundation and pillars are literary devices, not a scientific explanation. The context is clear, for that.
    3. 'Firmament' is archaic and obscure. I don't know if anyone can define it clearly, as the author intended. It refers to the sky or any great expanse. It is certainly not a 21st century cosmological term..
    From strongs:
    raqia: an extended surface, expanse
    Original Word: רָקִיעַ
    Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
    Transliteration: raqia
    Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kee'-ah)
    Definition: an extended surface, expanse

    4. Meteor showers look like 'falling stars!', and are still called that now. There is no description of size or physical mass in the story.
    5. That is not the claim. That is about the establishment of the earth, not a cosmological description.
    6. :rolleyes:
    Sunrises are still enjoyed, now.
    7. This is just a problem of reading comprehension..
    'All flying insects that walk on all fours'.. is a qualifier, not a declarative statement.
    8. This is also an obvious literary device, contrasting small beginnings with great futures. This is not a comparative analysis of horticulture..
    9. The Queen is not a 'Ruler', despite her lofty title. Instincts drive ants, more than rules mandated by the queen.
    10. 3 is about as practical as you can get, for hand made construction and primitive tools. You should marvel at the accuracy, rather than nit pick, looking for 'gotcha!' moments.. can you post the exact number of pi? ;)
     
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