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Featured 1 Cor 11:14

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Apr 7, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Comparing.....

    John 12:37-41 New International Version (NIV)
    Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

    “Lord, who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”


    For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

    “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them.”

    Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

    Isaiah 53:1 Expanded Bible (EXB)
    Who ·would have [or has] believed ·what we heard [or our message; John 12:38; Rom. 10:16]?
    ·Who saw the Lord’s power in this [L And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed]?


    upload_2019-4-9_23-23-11.jpeg
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Reading through.....comparing.....

    Luke 22:35-38 New International Version (NIV)
    Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

    “Nothing,” they answered.

    He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

    The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied.


    Isaiah 53:12 New International Version (NIV)

    Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
    because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

    upload_2019-4-9_23-30-14.jpeg

    Like some doppelganger, I should say.
     
  3. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    the Last Supper?......

    you stopped short
    He got up and left

    and you do realize?......what the disciples were asking when their swords landed on His Table?
     
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I think you should finish the story.
    Unless its a joke.
    Which needed some suspense.
    Like a knock knock joke or something?
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Paul had a momentary vision. He did not remain in communication with Jesus.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    All the Servant Song refers to Israel the suffering servant of God.. Why would Isaiah suddenly change in mid-verse. Further, Jesus was NOT despised of men.. By all accounts the people loved him and followed him wherever he went. This is Christians trying to hijack the old testament to "prove" Jesus. He doesn't need "proving".
     
  7. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    when I read the script.....

    they laid two swords on His Table
    and did ask....are these enough?

    they expected Him to multiply the swords as he did the fish and bread of previous occasion

    they could then arm the City over night
    Take control from the Romans

    they believed He was King of the Jews
    a King
    no army could defeat Him
    no soldier would know death or wound
    or hunger

    but He got up and left
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    obviously....His own disciples did not understand Him
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I think that's true. Israel was a hotbed of political turmoil.. Essenes, Herodians, Zealots, Sicarri, Pharisees, Saducees all either fighting the Roman occupation or fighting each other. The disciples expected an anointed warrior king like David.
     
  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Basis....basis....what is your basis.
    I gave mine and it fits like a glove.

    "Further, Jesus was NOT despised of men.. By all accounts the people loved him and followed him wherever he went."

    Must be another Jesus - a different one?
    Probably, a Hesus followed by a caravan walking toward the US

    Because the Jesus of the Bible was hunted since he was a child....
    [​IMG]

    Matthew 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
    When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

    Matthew 12:14 New International Version (NIV)
    But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

    Matthew 26:4 New International Version (NIV)
    and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him.

    Mark 3:6 New International Version (NIV)

    Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

    Mark 14:1 New International Version (NIV)
    Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him.

    John 7:1 New International Version (NIV)
    After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him.

    John 8:40 New International Version (NIV)
    As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

    John 7:25 New International Version (NIV)
    At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, “Isn’t this the man they are trying to kill?

    Acts 5:30 New International Version (NIV)
    The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.

    upload_2019-4-10_4-54-2.jpeg

    Hijack? Hi, Jesus!

    Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
    But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
    We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all. - Isa 53
     
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    They expect to multiply the swords....from 2 swords to 10,000 swords
    And they numbered 12 including Jesus because Judas left for the Pharisees

    Now that is funny.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Rome didn't order a census . Herod didn't have any babies killed. Jesus family didn't flee to Egypt.. That's all fictionalized myth making.

    Isaiah is talking about Israel, the servant of God.. Why would he suddenly switch to Jesus ?

    Same with Hosea 11:1

    "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and I called my son out of Egypt."
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    saiah 41:8-9

    But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

    Isaiah 44:1

    But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

    Isaiah 44:21


    Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

    Isaiah 45:4

    For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

    Isaiah 48:20


    Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

    Isaiah 49:3

    And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”


    “I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey” (Song of Songs 5:1): because the Israelites poured out their soul to die in captivity, as it is said, “Because he poured out his soul to die.”

    ( Isaiah 53:12)
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus said that Saul was a "chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel." (Acts 9:15)

    He said at 1 Timothy 1:12-13...."I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who imparted power to me, because he considered me faithful by assigning me to a ministry, 13 although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and with a lack of faith."

    In 'assigning a ministry' to this man, who was unlike the 12 in so many ways, (background, education, ability to address public figures etc.) Jesus taught Saul by means of holy spirit in his resurrected state.

    Saul was not educated by the other apostles, but used to write more contribution to Christian scripture that many of the other apostles.

    He confessed....“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Ci·liʹcia, but educated in this city at the feet of Ga·maʹli·el, instructed according to the strictness of the ancestral Law, and zealous for God just as all of you are this day."

    His credentials were perfect for his unique assignment. As a Roman citizen, it changed the way authorities dealt with him.

    His education allowed him to address the "Men of Athens" at the Areopagus.....well educated philosophers who would not have even tolerated the presence of uneducated fishermen.

    Saul was a very important part of the spread of Christianity after the death of Christ.

    As the apostle Paul, he was never out of touch with Jesus.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    So you think Jesus talked to Paul?

    The mission of the Apostle was thus revealed to Ananias in the first instance. He is one who welcomes that expansion of the kingdom on which even the chief of the Apostles would have entered, but for the voice from heaven, with doubt and hesitation (Acts 10:13; Acts 10:28). He is taught to see in the man of whom he had only heard as the persecutor, one who had been trained and chosen as fitter than all others for the work of that expansion.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yep....the Bible is not inspired of God and your interpretation must be right.....Because you say so? How on earth can you make statements like that? How can you tell what is fact or fiction? You obviously have a direct line to God.....who else has one of those I wonder? :shrug:
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Romans didn't order any census .. and if they had they wouldn't have had people return to where they were born.. That's laughable.

    Further, they don't know when Herod died.. except there was a full eclipse .. That only happened in the year 1 AD.

    Placing Herod's death in 1 B.C. allows us to accept the ANCIENT tradition that the Messiah was born in 3 B.C. The evidence of history, archaeology and astronomy is now showing that Herod died in early 1 B.C. and that the Messiah was therefore born in 3/2 B.C. (regnal dating) -- as confirmed by Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Africanus, Hippolytus of Rome, Hippolytus of Thebes, Origen, Eusebius and Epiphanius.

    Did Herod the "Great" Really Die In 4 B.C.?
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was Jesus who identified himself to Saul on the road to Damascus. Yes, the post resurrection Jesus spoke to Saul.

    Are you serious? Peter's vision was to prepare him for the acceptance of the first Gentile convert to Christianity. It was Peter who baptised Cornelius and his household. Something Peter could not have conceived of because of the bias with which he had been raised. A Jew would not have been caught dead in a Gentile home. He came to appreciate that God had now cleansed what was previously "unclean"....to open up the opportunity for God's promise to Abraham (that people of ALL nations would be blessed by means of his promised "seed") to be fulfilled.

    Previously, the only way for Gentiles to be acceptable to God was if they converted to Judaism.....this was the first instance of a Gentile directly converting to Christianity. So Peter's vision made complete sense to him once he was directed to the home of Cornelius and saw that these had already received holy spirit.

    He was trained to understand that Paul was going to be used in ways that the other apostles could not. Do you question his assignment? If so, why?
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is clear to me that you do not rely on the word of God but on the flawed testimony of men. There is always more than one explanation. You apparently make up your mind without much prompting to find those other explanations. You throw God under the bus when you invalidate his word.

    I don't believe that God's word is ever wrong....

    "3 What, then, is the case? If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? 4 Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar..." (Romans 3:3-4)

    ...but human interpretation can be completely skewed.
     
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