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1 Cor 11:14

Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
the apostle Paul says "Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man"...


This is pure crap because Mother Nature will allow both a man's or a woman's hair to grow long if not cut.

Does Mother Nature shame the male lion with a mane and the lioness with a round head?

Does Mother Nature make the male peacock a sissy with such fancy plumage?

Short male hair came about because of the needs of soldiers in battle: one less handle for the enemy to grab during a fight as ancient warfare was up close and personal way before Roger Bacon's discovery of gunpowder during the Dark Ages. A shepherd, non-warrior, need not a haircut as do his sheep for wool harvest.

I can't understand why ancient male Jews would have short hair yet grow beards since beards make a handle for the enemy to grab in warfare.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
the apostle Paul says "Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man"...


This is pure crap because Mother Nature will allow both a man's or a woman's hair to grow long if not cut.

Does Mother Nature shame the male lion with a mane and the lioness with a round head?

Does Mother Nature make the male peacock a sissy with such fancy plumage?

Short male hair came about because of the needs of soldiers in battle: one less handle for the enemy to grab during a fight as ancient warfare was up close and personal way before Roger Bacon's discovery of gunpowder during the Dark Ages. A shepherd, non-warrior, need not a haircut as do his sheep for wool harvest.
Well by that reasoning we shouldn't cut our hair and besides; not even our fingernails. So should we go around and not take care of ourselves? Mother nature teaches us to?

I think Paul has a good point.

I can't understand why ancient male Jews would have short hair yet grow beards since beards make a handle for the enemy to grab in warfare.
Maybe because that wasn't their reasoning ...
 

Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
Well by that reasoning we shouldn't cut our hair and besides; not even our fingernails. So should we go around and not take care of ourselves? Mother nature teaches us to?

I think Paul has a good point.


Maybe because that wasn't their reasoning ...

Warfare reasoning notwithstanding, why do women have a greater need for long hair than do men? Are women not taking care of themselves by letting their hair grow long?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 11:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

images


That means Jesus Christ did not sport long hair.

but why did Samson had long hair?

upload_2019-4-8_11-6-40.jpeg


Because Samson was dedicated as a Nazirite Judges 13:5-7

And as a Nazirite, they have to observe the vow Numbers 6:1-21
 

iam1me

Active Member
the apostle Paul says "Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man"...


This is pure crap because Mother Nature will allow both a man's or a woman's hair to grow long if not cut.

Does Mother Nature shame the male lion with a mane and the lioness with a round head?

Does Mother Nature make the male peacock a sissy with such fancy plumage?

Short male hair came about because of the needs of soldiers in battle: one less handle for the enemy to grab during a fight as ancient warfare was up close and personal way before Roger Bacon's discovery of gunpowder during the Dark Ages. A shepherd, non-warrior, need not a haircut as do his sheep for wool harvest.

I can't understand why ancient male Jews would have short hair yet grow beards since beards make a handle for the enemy to grab in warfare.

In nature we find Sexual Dimorphism. Men and women of the same species will tend towards different physical traits. The scriptures uphold such differences as good and natural - and consider it a sin to blur the line through things like cross-dressing and homosexual relations.

What those dimorphic traits are will differ by species - but the scriptures only really concern themselves with those of humans.

Paul is upholding the natural distinctions between men and women here - albeit some of what he says may of course be attributed to the Jewish culture and traditions of the day. As with the nazarites, even within jewish culture it can be acceptable and good for a man to grow his hair long. The important thing is how it is done. It is very possible to have long hair that maintains ones masculinity. It is also very possible for men to use long hair to present themselves feminine, and for women to use short hair to present themselves as masculine.

mulan2.png
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
the apostle Paul says "Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man"...


This is pure crap because Mother Nature will allow both a man's or a woman's hair to grow long if not cut.

Does Mother Nature shame the male lion with a mane and the lioness with a round head?

Does Mother Nature make the male peacock a sissy with such fancy plumage?

Short male hair came about because of the needs of soldiers in battle: one less handle for the enemy to grab during a fight as ancient warfare was up close and personal way before Roger Bacon's discovery of gunpowder during the Dark Ages. A shepherd, non-warrior, need not a haircut as do his sheep for wool harvest.

I can't understand why ancient male Jews would have short hair yet grow beards since beards make a handle for the enemy to grab in warfare.
and I seem to recall some rule......do not cut the hair at the temples of your head

but of course.....THAT would be a target in a fight
oh yeah
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That means Jesus Christ did not sport long hair.
Garner Ted Armstrong ( a tv evangelical of previous decade)
made report of a description alleged to have been penned by a Pharisee

that fellow was witness to the arrival of Jesus as He rode into the City
on the back of a young colt (pick a type)

on that day the Carpenter was bare chested....
"....His arms and chest are magnificent to see...."

He wore shoulder length hair....."the color of ripe chestnuts"

His beard of the same color and texture
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Garner Ted Armstrong ( a tv evangelical of previous decade)
made report of a description alleged to have been penned by a Pharisee

that fellow was witness to the arrival of Jesus as He rode into the City
on the back of a young colt (pick a type)

on that day the Carpenter was bare chested....
"....His arms and chest are magnificent to see...."

He wore shoulder length hair....."the color of ripe chestnuts"

His beard of the same color and texture

By a Pharisee? From a dead TV evangelist?
How about if from the Bible?
Would it be OK to you?

Isaiah 53 New International Version (NIV)
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
upload_2019-4-8_23-40-46.jpeg


Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
images

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

images

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
didn't see it.....how about?

....and from His mouth proceeds a double edged sword
 

Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
In nature we find Sexual Dimorphism. Men and women of the same species will tend towards different physical traits. The scriptures uphold such differences as good and natural - and consider it a sin to blur the line through things like cross-dressing and homosexual relations.

What those dimorphic traits are will differ by species - but the scriptures only really concern themselves with those of humans.

Paul is upholding the natural distinctions between men and women here - albeit some of what he says may of course be attributed to the Jewish culture and traditions of the day. As with the nazarites, even within jewish culture it can be acceptable and good for a man to grow his hair long. The important thing is how it is done. It is very possible to have long hair that maintains ones masculinity. It is also very possible for men to use long hair to present themselves feminine, and for women to use short hair to present themselves as masculine.

mulan2.png

Nature does not restrict men's hair length. In both male and female humans, hair will grow long unless cut by man. It was man-made society that decided to assign hair length/styles to the sexes. In nature, both men and women are naked as well so there are no clothes, masculine, feminine or otherwise. In both ancient Rome and Greece, both men and women wore "dress-like" garments (robes, tunics and whatnot) as well as open-toed sandals. Clothing without legs and crotches was chosen for cooling effect in the hot Mediterranean, not to identify the sexes. The notion of pants for boys and skirts for girls is a modern one.

That all said. I'm a man and choose to wear my hair short for comfort and convenience and because my culture says it's also permissible to do so because I'm a man. I also choose to go against nature by shaving because I perceive beards as gross and uncomfortable to wear. I do agree that penises should be circumcised because it's the clean thing to do though it goes against nature to do so. Uncut penises look gross also. I will never believe that same-sex matings go against nature because too many animal species have been observed doing it. Sexual attraction is purely inborn and varies from one individual to another. We don't choose the sex or sexes that turn us on of our own free will but only the individuals, male and/or female, with whom we mate provided the attraction and consent is mutual.
 
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iam1me

Active Member
Nature does not restrict men's hair length. In both male and female humans, hair will grow long unless cut by man. It was man-made society that decided to assign hair length/styles to the sexes. In nature, both men and women are naked as well so there are no clothes, masculine, feminine or otherwise. In both ancient Rome and Greece, both men and women wore "dress-like" garments (robes, tunics and whatnot) as well as open-toed sandals. Clothing without legs and crotches was chosen for cooling effect in the hot Mediterranean, not to identify the sexes. The notion of pants for boys and skirts for girls is a modern one.

That all said. I'm a man and choose to wear my hair short for comfort and convenience and because my culture says it's also permissible to do so because I'm a man. I also choose to go against nature by shaving because I perceive beards as gross and uncomfortable to wear. I do agree that penises should be circumcised because it's the clean thing to do though it goes against nature to do so. Uncut penises look gross also. I will never believe that same-sex matings go against nature because too many animal species have been observed doing it. Sexual attraction is purely inborn and varies from one individual to another. We don't choose the sex or sexes that turn us on of our own free will but only the individuals, male and/or female, with whom we mate provided the attraction and consent is mutual.

As I said, part of what Paul says is cultural. Different cultures have variations on what they consider masculine vs feminine. We must look to understand the underlying principles of what scripture says, not blindly follow it to the letter.

At the end of the day it isn't important whether your hair is long or short, but whether you are respecting the natural distinctions between men and women.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
btw......is it not true?
Paul never met Jesus

Oh, but he did...Paul was chosen and he was taught by Jesus just like the other apostles. The only difference was pre-to-post resurrection states.
 

Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
As I said, part of what Paul says is cultural. Different cultures have variations on what they consider masculine vs feminine. We must look to understand the underlying principles of what scripture says, not blindly follow it to the letter.

At the end of the day it isn't important whether your hair is long or short, but whether you are respecting the natural distinctions between men and women.

the natural distinctions between men and women

which are:

1. women chatter too much and worship the telephone
2. men are deeply obsessed with trucks and hunting
 

sooda

Veteran Member
By a Pharisee? From a dead TV evangelist?
How about if from the Bible?
Would it be OK to you?

Isaiah 53 New International Version (NIV)
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
View attachment 28095

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
images

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

images

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah isn't talking about Jesus.. He's talking about Israel. This is one of those bits of scripture that has been hijacked by Christians,.. IMO that makes us look bad and diminishes Jesus.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Isaiah isn't talking about Jesus.. He's talking about Israel. This is one of those bits of scripture that has been hijacked by Christians,.. IMO that makes us look bad and diminishes Jesus.

It is about Israel?

I say it is the Lord Jesus Christ.

The glove fits.

You can say its Israel, fine.
I still say its Jesus.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
It is about Israel?

I say it is the Lord Jesus Christ.

The glove fits.

You can say its Israel, fine.
I still say its Jesus.

Nope, It does NOT say the Servants Song is about Christ,. Read it thru..Its not about what I say.. Its about what the Bible says.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Nope, It does NOT say the Servants Song is about Christ,. Read it thru..Its not about what I say.. Its about what the Bible says.

Reading it through....

Matthew 8:14-17 New International Version (NIV)
When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.

When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

“He took up our infirmities
and bore our diseases.”


Isaiah 53:4 Expanded Bible (EXB)
But he ·took [bore] our suffering on him
and ·felt our pain for us [carried our sorrows/sickness].

·We saw his suffering
and thought God was punishing him [L …stricken and afflicted by him; C God].

Looks like its a match.
 
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