Of course, there's no such thing as "pure" freewill. No one is able to make decisions independently of the evolved decision-making mechanisms of their brains.
And everyone has different genes so no two brains are identical.
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‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.
- Thread starter QuestioningMind
- Start date
And everyone has different genes so no two brains are identical.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
God is not helpless to intervene because God is omnipotent but God is not obligated to intervene just because atheists want Him to. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what humans want Him to do. This is also logic 101 stuff.
Then you agree with this thread's title... thanks for the response.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Okay... but not really sure how that's pertinent, since this thread isn't about whether or not people should have free will.
We Never Know
No Slack
Which is why I started a thread about that post.
But you could be mistaken making this claim about a God. We have no facts to check.
This is bogus claim 101. There are no facts, which is required in logic.
Another factless claim.
The point is why God made such a brutal word in the first place. It could have designed genes so that children didn't have defects or diseases. It didn't need to create mental illnesses. It didn't need to create flesh eating bacteria or allow deadly viruses to mutate. What exists is what God created and allowed to happen. If there is a moral concern about what occurs in nature because some believe a God is the creator, well that is a problem for the believers. What we observe of an indifferent universe is consistent with no God existing.
This is naive. Try talking sense to trump. Or any of his supporters. You seem to assume everyone has sound mental health and are rational. There are many who have mental health issues, and even bad learned behaviors that are too habituated to be reasoned away.
The only intervention I know of by God is that He sends us Prophets, but we usually ignore them. God is making it clear that we are responsible for our own actions.
Look at the world today. It’s in a complete mess. We’ve had world wars, civil wars, ethnic cleansing even recently and God has given us the solution but we refuse to implement it. That’s our fault.
Let’s take just Christians for instance. I love them and they are great people but even though God has given us the solution for mankind’s problems, they await Christ to magically appear on a cloud with the kingdom of God all constructed to plonk down on earth and we will all live happily ever after.
Can you see what’s missing here? Where’s hard work, toil and responsibility? We sit back and God becomes our servant snapping His Fingers rolling out the red carpet for us!
So God just cleans our houses and wipes our backsides too?
If people are really, truly sincere at wanting a better world then when God gave us the Remedy we would have taken it with open arms. But because it involved HARD WORK so people sat on their hands and still do, waiting for God to wave His magic wand and fix everything.
Only a tiny handful are working for the rejuvenation of the world and building the Kingdom of God on earth and it will take much longer because people are just waiting for God to clean up our mess without them having to lift a finger.
A lazy, pathetic delusional attitude which is prolonging humanity’s suffering. And here is just another irresponsible post expecting God to do everything for us.
WE are responsible for law and order. WE are responsible for creating VIRTUOUS people. But we are sunk in irreligion and godlessness and all we care about are pleasures, games, sport and being entertained and amused.
Hello. What about our moral decadence? Our prejudices? They won’t just magically go away. It’s up to us to GROW UP and seriously try and fix our world but we’ve been so brainwashed by materialistic pursuits that as soon as problems arise we couldn’t be bothered and expect God to do everything for us.
Attachments
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Karma. A man after my child molester rapist murderer.
Known identified in human law. The oath on a shut bible to tell only the truth by human judges
A man is the father as a man by sex only. The father. Had his pleasure with female human in sex act.
Baby innocent. Did not ask to inherit life.
To ask for is karma by term taught a teaching.
Creator....did humans ask to exist?
No.
Was it our karma?
No.
It was the eternal spirit who inherited human life's karma. Yet the eternal first changed by entering creation.
Not a humans fault became the humans fault a teaching.
So taught. Human knew no more burning change allowed. Science.
Burnt gods evolution cooled
Man mind behaviour became depraved evil corrupted. His choice.
Two teachings state no victim of another human adult is guilty.
Father said. I will have no sex. I will ordain by my choice and self control no sex to ordinate human law for my family. The least I could achieve myself.
Versus satanic scientists AI feedback science of man's possession by thoughts.
Known identified in human law. The oath on a shut bible to tell only the truth by human judges
A man is the father as a man by sex only. The father. Had his pleasure with female human in sex act.
Baby innocent. Did not ask to inherit life.
To ask for is karma by term taught a teaching.
Creator....did humans ask to exist?
No.
Was it our karma?
No.
It was the eternal spirit who inherited human life's karma. Yet the eternal first changed by entering creation.
Not a humans fault became the humans fault a teaching.
So taught. Human knew no more burning change allowed. Science.
Burnt gods evolution cooled
Man mind behaviour became depraved evil corrupted. His choice.
Two teachings state no victim of another human adult is guilty.
Father said. I will have no sex. I will ordain by my choice and self control no sex to ordinate human law for my family. The least I could achieve myself.
Versus satanic scientists AI feedback science of man's possession by thoughts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where you do fail logic 101 is that God is not morally responsible to anyone. Only humans are subject to moral behavior.
God sets the standards for human morality but God is not subject to morality because God is not a human.
moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=moraal+defin
"make bad people good."
In other words, God should make bad people good so bad people would no longer be responsible for their bad behavior.
Where you do fail logic 101 is that you think that unlimited absolute power and wisdom means that God should do what you think He should do rather than what He chooses to do.
God has absolutely no moral responsibility to humans, it is the other way around.
God did not commit any atrocities we did. God gave us life. We abuse it. That’s our fault. Where is humanity’s sincerity?
Why haven’t we implemented this teaching given to us by God in the 1800’s? If we really wanted peace we could have it tomorrow but greed and things like arms sales benefit from wars so some countries fan wars to keep the coffers full. We didn’t implement this and so we had the world wars, Holocaust and so many other calamities.
So we have a real solution here. Sit down and talk it out. Come together and work it out. Or do we prefer wars and genocide? This passage was written before the League of Nations or UN had even been thought of.
God has done His bit by offering us a solid solution through Baha’u’llah. How dare we accuse God of not caring. He foresaw all the wars we were about to fight and appealed beforehand to basically deaf ears. So millions were slaughtered. And it will continue until we do our bit.
The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. (Baha’u’llah)
Why haven’t we implemented this teaching given to us by God in the 1800’s? If we really wanted peace we could have it tomorrow but greed and things like arms sales benefit from wars so some countries fan wars to keep the coffers full. We didn’t implement this and so we had the world wars, Holocaust and so many other calamities.
So we have a real solution here. Sit down and talk it out. Come together and work it out. Or do we prefer wars and genocide? This passage was written before the League of Nations or UN had even been thought of.
God has done His bit by offering us a solid solution through Baha’u’llah. How dare we accuse God of not caring. He foresaw all the wars we were about to fight and appealed beforehand to basically deaf ears. So millions were slaughtered. And it will continue until we do our bit.
The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. (Baha’u’llah)
Let's assume your beliefs are true, if you were born with a mental illness how are you responsible for your own actions? About 1 in every 24 are born sociopaths, which is a brain defect. How do you make moral decisions and be responsible? If you were born in a highly religious society and you had to follow the orders of the leadership, like torture infidels, do you refuse and get tortured yourself?
Your ideals are very easy when you sit behind a computer screen and can afford to think the rest of the world makes simple decisions.
Much of that is due to citizens who are attracted to authoritarian leaders like trump or Putin or Erdogan, among other nations going that way. Many of these people are religious. Religion isn't going to solve a problem that is largely caused by too much emotion, and inadequate skilled thinking.
Why not have a secular humanist approach? What about theists who want their tradition. Or atheists? Off with their heads? What fingers will you lift to persuade outsiders of your tribe to join you if not by force?
I suggest belief in God is lazy. I say that because no one comes to a conclusion that any God exists via facts. They decide a God exists due to evolution, and social experience that indoctrinates them that some sort of God exists, as described by their culture's religion.
Thinking outside the religion box is a more neutral approach. It might require theists to work. If you're not willing, then you are ironically an example of those you blame for not doing enough.
Would you give up your religious beliefs to bring about global peace?
firedragon
Veteran Member
How do you know?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Reason reasons.
After dinosaur giants died earth pressures change by deep freeze ice.
Thawed a cooled gas water mass.
We say human animal life then returned to its correct earth origin nature.
As earth mass origin was colder pressure body crystalline not dusts.
We taught earth was Atlantis was our home. Science destroyed it.
Proof archaeology with de evolution taught.
Re evolution just healing cooling taught also. Healing the bible said in science terms was a teaching. To learn.
Did we need to learn?
No.
Science imposed learning that rationally had not existed. So it was not learning first. Learning became an effect.
To practice machine thesis about earth as products first.
O earth man's science thesis about products only of his man study. Man's biology is human owned.
Behind is an instant human owning no theist argument. Because we do think in self presence the human thinks upon a chosen topic.
Self evident.
O earth we need as natural.
It's heavens we need.
Change was ice inherited we need.
Science taught the only higher body inherited on earth was ice.
Science stated. No argument.
Ice newly born re inherits body mass end of each year. Keeps life balanced. The newly born spirit of God the earth only.
Ice on earth.
Trees garden.
Animal new bio life.
Humans as their selves.
God reasoning. Earth O it's heavens and new saviour ice.
Garden trees not human conscious.
Animals owned conscious
Humans
First humans spiritual holy healthy first consciousness
No science.
No machines.
No fallout radiation.
Father mother humans inherited conscious memories deceased.
Recorded by state heavens. Holy human conscious bio life memories are not any gods.
Gods owned conditions however kept the memory recordings
Status a spiritual taught memory advice.
Baby adult human science irradiated minds nothing like origin parents.
The learnt human lesson my parents as a spirit god theme.
The reason for no illogical science human argument to exist.
After dinosaur giants died earth pressures change by deep freeze ice.
Thawed a cooled gas water mass.
We say human animal life then returned to its correct earth origin nature.
As earth mass origin was colder pressure body crystalline not dusts.
We taught earth was Atlantis was our home. Science destroyed it.
Proof archaeology with de evolution taught.
Re evolution just healing cooling taught also. Healing the bible said in science terms was a teaching. To learn.
Did we need to learn?
No.
Science imposed learning that rationally had not existed. So it was not learning first. Learning became an effect.
To practice machine thesis about earth as products first.
O earth man's science thesis about products only of his man study. Man's biology is human owned.
Behind is an instant human owning no theist argument. Because we do think in self presence the human thinks upon a chosen topic.
Self evident.
O earth we need as natural.
It's heavens we need.
Change was ice inherited we need.
Science taught the only higher body inherited on earth was ice.
Science stated. No argument.
Ice newly born re inherits body mass end of each year. Keeps life balanced. The newly born spirit of God the earth only.
Ice on earth.
Trees garden.
Animal new bio life.
Humans as their selves.
God reasoning. Earth O it's heavens and new saviour ice.
Garden trees not human conscious.
Animals owned conscious
Humans
First humans spiritual holy healthy first consciousness
No science.
No machines.
No fallout radiation.
Father mother humans inherited conscious memories deceased.
Recorded by state heavens. Holy human conscious bio life memories are not any gods.
Gods owned conditions however kept the memory recordings
Status a spiritual taught memory advice.
Baby adult human science irradiated minds nothing like origin parents.
The learnt human lesson my parents as a spirit god theme.
The reason for no illogical science human argument to exist.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Yes he is. If your deity gives free will then he gives to be judged to others since free will entails reason and judgement, including moral judgement. We can judge god because we have moral judgement. If your deity didn't wanted to be judged, it should have refused free will to humans.
Special pleading there. If your deity sets moral standards and doesn't abide by them then he is acting in an immoral way according to his own standards.
Your God can't be called good if your deity cannot follow its own moral rules. It cannot be said to moral either if it doesn't have any morality and just do whatever it wants or is compelled by its nature to do like any solitary animal like a tiger or a bear.
That's not a failure of logic at all.
If doing X is good and your god doesn't do X even though he could, then your god is not good. That's valid and logical statement.
Considering God cannot be harmed in any way shape or form, we can't have any responsibility toward his wellbeing. God, by your own definition cannot "go badly". Yet if God declares that not harming humans is good and harming them is bad and he harms humans or doesn't help human in distress, he breaks his own rule. It's simple as that.
If God doesn't obey his own rules because he doesn't feel they apply to him; why should you play by his?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
What about human truth is first.
So is just human memory first.
Natural human.
Not science
Not theisms humans thinking.
To own no argument allowed science the problem and then problem solver.
You cannot solve living.
Yes said science I theoried anti back in time death before you existed actually.
Natural human says authority of any kind is not human mutual as a parent so lies. It is innate.
Why the elderly wise should replace authoritarian advice. If you quote let's begin again as humanity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not agree because God needs no excuses for anything He does or does not do since God cannot ever make any mistakes since God is infallible.
People who are not mentally sound are of course not blameworthy at all.But I believe religion is the answer. In each age God sends a Messenger to help mankind deal with the problems of that age and advance further.
At one time Jesus taught love thy neighbour, then Muhammad appeared after some 600. years and created the nation and taught to love one’s country.
Now however, because of technological advances the different religions, races and nationalities are forced to come together yet there is no common bond to bring them together so we have had great wars and a Holocaust and various conflicts all due to our differences.
So in this age God sent Baha’u’llah with the teaching of the oneness of humanity.
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. (Baha’u’llah)
This concept of world citizenship is the next stage in humanity’s evolution towards a world civilisation. This is reality. We have the means to accomplish it and we will in time become a flourishing world civilisation.
Religion is relevant to the age in which it was revealed and not forever. The spiritual teachings of all the Prophets, to love and be virtuous are eternal. Today, love for all humanity is the latest teaching from God. To put aside our prejudices and work together for the betterment of the world.
Makes perfect sense to me for nations, religions and races to become like brothers and sisters.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You will have to take that up with God because I have no way of knowing why God created such a brutal world.
For you and other atheists, but not for me and other believers, because we do not view God as indifferent. We believe that suffering exists but God is not indifferent to it.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
The serial killer can think "no i am not going to do it" that is not on God. It is a human problem that we chose to do wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You can judge God till the cows come home but it won't make any difference to God.....
God will still be what God is, and you cannot hurt God by judging Him.
God is by nature all-good and as such God cannot be immoral.
God does not have to follow rules because God is not 'answerable' to anyone.
God does whatever He chooses to do and if you don't like it there is nothing you can do about it since you are not all-powerful.
Who determines what is good?
You think that X is good but you are just a fallible human. Another human thinks Y is good and another human thinks Z is good.
God alone knows what is good for humans since God created humans with a purpose in mind.
That's right. I never said we were responsible for God. God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining so God needs nothing from humans. We are responsible to God if we want to be obedient to God for our own benefit.
When did God ever harm humans? Please don't refer to the Bible because that is not my scripture.
God helps humans in the way He chooses to help them, by sending Messengers who reveal teachings and laws so humans can help themselves. God is not Superman who comes to rescue humans in distress, that is anthropomorphism.
Got sets the rules but is not subject to them because God is not subject to anything at all. If you do not want to play by God's rules you don't have to because God gave you free will to choose.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Why would any God wish for anyone to repent or seek forgiveness in the first place? None of us chose to be born and I doubt anyone chose to be a psychopathic mass murder or child molester by choice. God is like some person hiding behind the curtains looking at people and waiting for them to do wrong, so he can point his finger and say repent!!
If God really thought it was a huge issue, he could simply have made it impossible, just like we don't have wings or can't breath under water, no one think about that as being unfair or a lack of free will. Were humans unable to kill each other like some does, no one would fall to their knees and cry to God for the lack of free will.
Besides that 98% or so of all humans can live perfectly fine lives without going around killing others. So free will in my opinion is nothing but a bad excuse.
And besides that if free will is the excuse then obviously it would also mean that it is impossible for God to intervene in anything, otherwise the argument falls apart.
Because of the reasons I laid out in the OP