‘Holy War’: Thousands Against Atheists’ "Attack" on Nativity

[T-Dawg]

How does a religious display offend unless the display is intentionally saying something bad about someone? You really have to look for something to be offensive don't you? I'm Wiccan and I fail to see what is offensive about a Nativity scene. Now, if the display is on public or government property I would hope that it is equally open to other displays by differing faiths, or even non-faiths, as not to do so would show favoritism to a particular religion and that doesn't set well with me, as it shouldn't set well with anyone in what is supposed to be a secular country.

But why would we have the display at all when we could easily have no display? Representing every possible belief is going to be impractical. We would need money for Christmas, for Kwanzaa, for Hanukkah, for Festivus, for Generic Capitalist Wintertime Gift-Giving Season, for Saturnalia, for the Rite of Belial, and whatever else people think of that I have forgotten... and each one of these would cost money, time, labor, and space. You'd need to pay for each little decoration, hire people to put them up, and cram them all into whatever space you decided to put them in.
And then you need to hire bureaucrats to make sure the displays are all equal and each possible religion is represented fairly.

I have no doubt that you are a troubled person if that's how you see life and the world in general. You do realize "the religious" covers quite a wide array of beliefs and faiths don't you? In fact, I think if you were honest you'd find that the people who you think are so against you are an extreme minority in the world. Most religious people are not like that at all. I should think you would know that.

Oh yes, it's a very wide array of people. Sometimes I feel like I'm in the middle of Mordor, only I don't have the Ring, so I can't do anything about Sauron.

The people who are so against me vary, oddly enough. Sometimes I find that many Christians are just as human as anyone else; then, just as quickly, they can go all berserk every now and then. It's like they turn their faith on and off at key moments.
I find that the extreme minority you mentioned has control over the others. Everyone seems to temporarily become a rabid extremist with just a little encouragement, hence the phenomenon of "Sunday Christians" - people who are normal six days of the week, and then become fundamentalists for the duration of Sunday.

Of course, there is no way to tell when a Christian is about to take their faith seriously and attack me. I can only assume that anyone who worships God will be like God, and go forth murdering innocents (Exodus is a good example), inflicting plagues (Exodus is a good example, as is the story of David's census), perverting justice (Christians explicitly believe that innocents have to die for the sins of the guilty, hence the sacrifice of Jesus), and the like. If they didn't approve of these things, they wouldn't call themselves Christians.

 

[riley2112]

Of course, there is no way to tell when a Christian is about to take their faith seriously and attack me. I can only assume that anyone who worships God will be like God, and go forth murdering innocents (Exodus is a good example), inflicting plagues (Exodus is a good example, as is the story of David's census), perverting justice (Christians explicitly believe that innocents have to die for the sins of the guilty, hence the sacrifice of Jesus), and the like. If they didn't approve of these things, they wouldn't call themselves Christians.

You got all of that stuff out of the Bible huh? You know that sometimes authors exaggerates for the sake of drama. So it could be just bad press. What you think?

 

[Draka]

But why would we have the display at all when we could easily have no display? Representing every possible belief is going to be impractical. We would need money for Christmas, for Kwanzaa, for Hanukkah, for Festivus, for Generic Capitalist Wintertime Gift-Giving Season, for Saturnalia, for the Rite of Belial, and whatever else people think of that I have forgotten... and each one of these would cost money, time, labor, and space. You'd need to pay for each little decoration, hire people to put them up, and cram them all into whatever space you decided to put them in.
And then you need to hire bureaucrats to make sure the displays are all equal and each possible religion is represented fairly.

Cool, job creation and economic stability in the decoration department. How nifty.

Oh yes, it's a very wide array of people. Sometimes I feel like I'm in the middle of Mordor, only I don't have the Ring, so I can't do anything about Sauron.

The people who are so against me vary, oddly enough. Sometimes I find that many Christians are just as human as anyone else; then, just as quickly, they can go all berserk every now and then. It's like they turn their faith on and off at key moments.
I find that the extreme minority you mentioned has control over the others. Everyone seems to temporarily become a rabid extremist with just a little encouragement, hence the phenomenon of "Sunday Christians" - people who are normal six days of the week, and then become fundamentalists for the duration of Sunday.

Of course, there is no way to tell when a Christian is about to take their faith seriously and attack me. I can only assume that anyone who worships God will be like God, and go forth murdering innocents (Exodus is a good example), inflicting plagues (Exodus is a good example, as is the story of David's census), perverting justice (Christians explicitly believe that innocents have to die for the sins of the guilty, hence the sacrifice of Jesus), and the like. If they didn't approve of these things, they wouldn't call themselves Christians.

See, what I see here is a lot of anti-Christian hysteria. I also see how you first argue about "the religious" but you only seem to speak about Christianity. As if it is the yardstick by which to measure all religions, or that no other religions matter. You speak out against the "religious", but you seem to only have real issues with Christianity, and then...it is a bastardized concept of Christianity fueled by stereotyping.

You seem to have a lot of hate in you. Perhaps you need to just take a breather and calm down.

 

[T-Dawg]

Cool, job creation and economic stability in the decoration department. How nifty.

I never thought about it like that, I'll admit. But that still leaves the problem of having to determine the fairness of the displays; someone will always be angry with the result.

See, what I see here is a lot of anti-Christian hysteria. I also see how you first argue about "the religious" but you only seem to speak about Christianity. As if it is the yardstick by which to measure all religions, or that no other religions matter. You speak out against the "religious", but you seem to only have real issues with Christianity, and then...it is a bastardized concept of Christianity fueled by stereotyping.

You seem to have a lot of hate in you. Perhaps you need to just take a breather and calm down.

Because the overwhelming majority of the the Religious, or at least the majority that I will ever be likely to encounter, are Christian, I tend to focus on them (and many of my criticisms of Christianity apply also to Judaism and Islam, since they stem from the Old Testament, leaving just a small portion of the minority that does not worship the same God as they do). Quite frankly, non-Christian religions don't matter right now in my country, because other religions are minuscule numerically, and, so far as I know, aren't trying to take over our government (now, if I was living, in, say, Pakistan, I would be focusing on Islam instead of Christianity). However, if Christianity were ever to be defeated, I have no doubt that other religions would turn against me in their place. For example, in India, where Hindus are the majority and Christians are a tiny minority, non-Hindus, particularly Muslims, are attacked (often violently) regularly, and in turn the Hindus are attacked back - Christians aren't particularly significant there, and if I lived there, I would focus my attention on Hinduism and Islam.
It is human nature to want to persecute that which is different from you. I am simply on one "side," and "they" other sides. I naturally want my side to "win," and they want theirs to win. That is what life is about.

You got all of that stuff out of the Bible huh? You know that sometimes authors exaggerates for the sake of drama. So it could be just bad press. What you think?

It is what the Christians believe - most of them (or at least most I've met) believe it is literally the divine, inerrant word of God. They take it literally, why would they not act on it literally?

 

[riley2112]

It is what the Christians believe - most of them (or at least most I've met) believe it is literally the divine, inerrant word of God. They take it literally, why would they not act on it literally?

Maybe some Christians believe the Bible word for word. I am a Christian but I am thinking that a lot of what is in the Bible was put in there by a few greedy men that just wanted to gain power and wealth. It may be a Good thread to see how many people really take the Bible word for word.

 

[work in progress]

That is some funny stuff, That was in the pass and you name me one group of people that does not have something in their pass to be ashame of , Get a grip. That was then this is now. The terrible things that people ( not we, because we was not alive) did in the pass was the people not the religion. Why do people that seem to be intelligent in every other way not get this. People have and will blame their greedy evil doings on anything that they believe will justify it , and most of the time they use religion because others not thinking will buy into it. That is what is sad. And the next time you start talking about how bad it was to have slaves remember that they had slaves in Africa by their own kind, locking up Japanese? Really, Pearl Harbor, ring any bells. Just saying. We have made some mistake as a nation, but we are learning. But some of the so called mistakes , you would have made them to . It is easy to look back and say this was bad and that was bad. very easy.

It wasn't my post, but the litany of wrongs are historical facts. So, if Christianity is going to live up to its aspirations, modern day Christians have to take responsibility for past evils that may have had prurient political and commercial interests, but were done in the name of religion. So, Manifest Destiny genocides and creating a slave-based economy in the New World cannot be just dismissed with a wave of the hand. Re: "they had slaves in Africa" -- this is a poor justification of New World slavery, since African slave traders did not practice eugenics and try to grow new slaves like cattle to work the fields, serve as house servants, or be sold as sex slaves and concubines....yes, how come that little detail of the glorious Antebellum South gets ignored these days?

My concern is with what religion and the adherents of religions are doing today and how much have they learned from the past. And, it's a mixed message to say the least! For every good, hopeful story, there's plenty of bad ones indicating a reversion to that old timed religion! Consider the rebirth of the patriarchy advocates in fundamentalist churches, the creation of a new Christian fundamentalism that worships wealth and success, and those who gain them, and disparages the poor....essentially turning the traditional Christian message on its head! And then there's militant pro-war patriotic themes that are growing, and could easily serve as the religious authority of a new fascism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don´t care much how juvenile they may be, ...

Thanks for being honest.

 

[work in progress]

"The battle over a nativity scene in Athens, Texas, reached new heights this weekend when up to 5,000 supporters flooded the town square. Their purpose? To stand firmly opposed to the attacks a prominent atheist group has waged on the religious display.

As the Blaze reported earlier this month, the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group that frequently targets the presence of faith and religion in the public square, is demanding that a nativity scene be removed from public property.​

​

From a strictly legalistic standpoint, the FFRF has the Constitution on their side. But a lot of secularists would rather that this group would pick better hills to die on rather than attacking nativity scenes in the public square at Christmas! It's this kind of battle that modern Elmer Gantry's like that clown are looking for. And the FFRF billboards and sign campaigns are totally out to lunch because most of them say something offensive or disparaging about religion, while most of the religious signs just advocate their beliefs.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Thanks for being honest.

You wouldn't classify deliberately commenting on a sentence fragment out of context as juvenile? Interesting sense of consistency you have.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course you do. It's you (perhaps exaggerated) persona.

Tis true of all posters here....we are who we are, & we believe what we believe.
Is there some pithier point lurking within your statement?

 

[riley2112]

Re: "they had slaves in Africa" -- this is a poor justification of New World slavery, since African slave traders did not practice eugenics and try to grow new slaves like cattle to work the fields, serve as house servants, or be sold as sex slaves and concubines....yes, how come that little detail of the glorious Antebellum South gets ignored these days? .

I was not trying to justifiy slavery I was just pointing out that it was not an american invention. Also they did not have to grow new slaves. Just attack a villiage , take the slaves you want and kill the rest. What I am saying is that a lot of bad thinks happen in the past and with any luck we have learned a thing or two by now.

My concern is with what religion and the adherents of religions are doing today and how much have they learned from the past. And, it's a mixed message to say the least! For every good, hopeful story, there's plenty of bad ones indicating a reversion to that old timed religion! Consider the rebirth of the patriarchy advocates in fundamentalist churches, the creation of a new Christian fundamentalism that worships wealth and success, and those who gain them, and disparages the poor....essentially turning the traditional Christian message on its head! And then there's militant pro-war patriotic themes that are growing, and could easily serve as the religious authority of a new fascism.

Again, if bad people want to do bad things they will blame it on whatever is at their disposal. Take away religion and they will come up with something else to blame , they use it as a tool.

 

[Skwim]

That strikes me as being rather juvenile, but so too does the actions of the atheists involved. The general intent of theists when it comes to holiday displays is one of honoring deeply held faith traditions.

I don't buy that one for a minute. It's not honoring. It's merchandizing. That's why such display aren't confined to church property but to high traffic areas, both public and private.

The general intent of those who attack this is often to dishonor and disparage those faith traditions.

Here's what I see is going on.

Christians have this event every year in December where they attempt to gather in new members and get the current members to recommit. Up until the Christians began this marketing campaign atheists were pretty content to live and let live (there are other on-going Christian practices atheists take exception to). Aside from the illegal use of public property, there's not too much wrong with the campaign, except that the underlying message is that if you're not a charter member or are thinking of dropping your membership you will suffer for it. Essentially, it's saying that as a nonmember your life is incomplete, wasted, worthless, in trouble, futile, and on the brink of ruin. (claims all taken from various web sites). How nice. Here's an organization whose members are telling me that if I don't get with the program I'm worthless. "Without me, you are worthless, but with me you can do good things."*

As I said, nothing unlawful with the message, but it does reek of stick-it-in-your-face elitism: "You're wrong and I'm right so you'd better join my side." Fine, but to see it on public property, which is where atheists take most exception to it, I can see it coming across as aggressive browbeating. Who wants to be reminded every year that their beliefs are in error. (Personally, I don't care, but I know many others do.)

Hence, the atheist parry. "So, you want to play that game do you. Well take this!" IMO I see the atheists doing nothing more than taking the Christian initiative, which is to tell the world they're right and everyone else is wrong, and raise it up a notch by telling the Christians why they, the Christians, are wrong. Of course the Christians don't usually come out and explicitly state why the non-Christian is wrong, but so what? There's nothing to say atheists or anyone else have to play by their rules in this fracas. "Want to unlawfully merchandise your religion on public property then be prepared for the consequences."

To me, such Christians deserve nothing less. They are all aware of the law, or are at least responsible to be so, yet they ignore it just to tell me "without [Jesus], you are worthless," or at least that my life is.

To equate the two is, in my opinion, thoughtless and morally bankrupt.

And I believe the Christians' attempt to demean others and flaunt the law is thoughtless, morally bankrupt, and deserves to be taken to task.

*source

 

[Reverend Rick]

I detect some anger issues.

 

[Revoltingest]

I detect some anger issues.

That was me.
The cauldron still seethes with rage.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That was me.
The cauldron still seethes with rage.

I get that way some times, beer seems to help ease the pain.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That was me.
The cauldron still seethes with rage.

Take up a relaxing pastime like knitting or day trading.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Take up a relaxing pastime like knitting or day trading.

Or stringing popcorn for the outdoor chistmas tree, the birds love it!

 

[T-Dawg]

Maybe some Christians believe the Bible word for word. I am a Christian but I am thinking that a lot of what is in the Bible was put in there by a few greedy men that just wanted to gain power and wealth. It may be a Good thread to see how many people really take the Bible word for word.

That WOULD be a good thread, actually...

I doubt RF is a good statistical sample, given that RF users tend to be significantly more liberal than the average population, but it's a start...

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

You want a Holy War on the Nativity, here ya go.

BBC News - Priests brawl in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity

Scuffles have broken out between rival groups of Greek Orthodox and Armenian clerics in a turf war at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity.

Bemused tourists looked on as about 100 priests fought with brooms while cleaning the church in preparation for Orthodox Christmas, on 7 January.

Palestinian police armed with batons and shields broke up the clashes.

Groups of priests have clashed before in the church, built on the spot where Christians believe Jesus was born.

 

[work in progress]

I was not trying to justifiy slavery I was just pointing out that it was not an american invention. Also they did not have to grow new slaves. Just attack a villiage , take the slaves you want and kill the rest.

That's only how the first generation the slaves got to America, or the Caribbean and South America! Shipping was expensive during those times, and many female slaves were impregnated as often as possible and kept as breeders for new slaves. Growing new slaves was more cost-efficient than having to buy them off of Arab or West African Coast slave traders and shipping them to the New World.

This also touches on how slaves were viewed in the Christian West as opposed to African and Arab societies. They may not have been any more charitable to the slaves they captured and kept, but they did not re-classify slaves as a less-than-human species. A slave taken north to Timbuktu and sold, still had the opportunity to escape or buy his freedom and return home. Escape was impossible in the Caribbean, and became virtually impossible in America also, when the Federal Government conceded that runaway slaves be returned to their owners. And buying freedom was equally remote. Even if the first generation slave was able to purchase freedom , they were a 2nd class citizen with no ability to return home because of the enormous cost and great distance of having to cross the Ocean.

What I am saying is that a lot of bad thinks happen in the past and with any luck we have learned a thing or two by now.
Again, if bad people want to do bad things they will blame it on whatever is at their disposal. Take away religion and they will come up with something else to blame , they use it as a tool.

The problem is that a belief that a divine origin of a book makes the moral precepts contained in that book more difficult to change if a later society considers the traditional interpretations harmful or detrimental. Over time, there will be new interpretations, or they may just be ignored as something applying in the past, but no longer in effect. My point is that to really learn from the past, when bad things are done in the name of religion, the would be reformers have to go the extra distance to take responsibility for past wrongs and repudiate them completely; not make excuses or point fingers at the wrongs that others are doing. In the example mentioned earlier - Manifest Destiny, this ideal of having divine authority to take land away from others is somewhat reformulated in the modern dogma of American Exceptionalism -- and any Christians would be wise to look on this modern notion with great suspicion. Some evangelicals....like some of the Republican candidates for President, are really pushing this dangerous ideology hard.