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  1. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Show me manuscript evidence that the titles of the Gospels were added later on, show me for examplee an early copy of Matthew lacking the title. And also name this early Christians who held that Thomas was the beloved disciple, demonstrate your claim that early church tradition is so diverse...
  2. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Well you are a proffessing agnostics so it doesn't shock me to learn that you find more value in the work of liberals and moderates, as it gives you reason to continue doubting the gospels and keep you from seriously chewing on the message contained in them.However I have no such agenda I go...
  3. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Moderate and liberals are not free of bias. Many liberals are naturalists who are extremely critical of supernaturalism and thus of the miraculous claims recorded in the bible, and their criticism and exegesis of the bible suffers through that as a consequence. They are purposefuly overly harsh...
  4. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    fallingblood we are deviating from the matter in question, therefore to avoid further deviation I will only fleetingly regard some of your points. 1. Its not clear to me if you have dropped your initial argument that most scholars argue for later dates for the gospel, because somewhere you seem...
  5. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    The data favors an early date as I showed, and no the vast majority of scholars do not concur that John didnt write the Gospel bearing his name, can you name these scholars? And why in your view are liberal and moderate scholars less biased? what makes their report more trustworthy, these...
  6. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    As to whether the Gospel is antisemitic that is a topic for another thread, for now im happy with the historical data that places the gospel within the lifetime of eyewitnesses including John. furthermorf the author of the gospel has identified himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved see John...
  7. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Fallingblood, you aver that all I gave in my above post re the fleeing of disciples are some unfounded assumptions, interestingly you are guilty of the very thing you have accused me of- to say that John didnt write the Gospel attributed to him because of apparant anti-semitism in the gospel is...
  8. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that in the time when all things are made new, and the Son of man is seated in his glory, you who have followed me will be seated on twelve seats, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 BBE) Not the qualifier: you who have followed me...
  9. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Not a problem at all. The disciples could have returned after fleeing and they could have witnessed the crucifixion that took place the next day. What is more we read the following: from this we see that the beloved disciple, probably John, not only witnessed the crucifixion, but spoke with...
  10. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    We are not discussing whether or not Luke is an authentic gospel that is not the purpose of this thread, all Gospels record how Jesus was crucified, not only Luke. This is not a thread about eternal life so I won't be dragged into a discussion about that either. The question is WAS JESUS KILLED...
  11. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    We are not discussing whether or not Luke is an authentic gospel that is not the purpose of this thread, all Gospels record how Jesus was crucified, not only Luke. This is not a thread about eternal life so I won't be dragged into a discussion about that either. The question is WAS JESUS KILLED...
  12. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    This is a thread about whether or not Jesus was killed on the cross, not about false prophecies Jesus might have given or about which gospel account came before which one, I will not discuss anything else accept the the thread topic Was Jesus killed on the cross?
  13. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Boy do I have my work cut out for me or what! Hardly, as I'm going to sidestep all the immaterial points that have no bearing on the subject matter of whether Jesus was killed. According to the Gospels available to us "Today" Jesus was crucified I don't care what some "lost Gospel" has got to...
  14. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    IF the Muslim keeps insisting that in line with Jonahs sign Jesus had to be alive in the tomb, then what do they make of John 3:14, where Jesus says that just as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole he t00 must be lifted up,numbers 21:8-9, talking about his crucifixion. since the serpent that...
  15. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    I have already discussed why the sign of Jonah doesnt mean that Jesus was alive in the tomb, to see my discussions on this hark back to my earlier posts. i raised some questions about it that are yet to be answered. when Jesus alluded to Jonahs fish ordeal, he didnt intend to convey the message...
  16. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Where is your evidence that the blood loss was minimul? Don't be silly, mate, Jesus had a thorn crown in his head, underwent a severe lashing that would have ripped him open, and a spear to his side, which severed a major vein causing major blood loss, had he been alive up to that point that...
  17. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Lol. Are you serious, blood loss didnt cause death? 6 hours is a long time to be bleeding, Jesus body was tattered, and punctured, bits of his flesh hung everywhere. Infection coupled with blood loss, axphixiation and shock are quite enough to kill. You say many have survived a crucifixion, yet...
  18. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Now you have quoted Psalm 118, and wrongly linked parts of it you desired to the Messiah, Jesus, not knowing that not all of Psalm 118 is about the Messiah. In Psalm 118 Jesus identifies himself as the stone which after the builders refused it became the head stone of the corner. Psalm...
  19. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Another thing cherry picking between scripture, deciding which ones are genuine and which ones are later additions is a baseles excercise. I can ask you how do you know which ones were added (if infact there were additions)? The ones that counter your view? How will you know such a thing?
  20. R

    Was Jesus killed on the cross?

    Shine_of_sun raising other points while you have left many unanswered(see my post #69) will not help you, answer all the points i raised. as for psalm 91, it was satan, the father of lies who linked it to Jesus. Now Satan did quote scripture, he quoted psalm 91, which is scripture, so when Jesus...
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