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The refiner's fire in Mal 3:2 is not the purgatory.SOGFPP said:On purgatory:
Purgatory is like a refiners fire (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.
SOGFPP said:Correct..... it is LIKE a refiners fire..... that passage is used as an example to explain the principle.... it is not meant as as evidence for purgatory per se.
Anything else?
Is the word "Trinity" present in any version of the Bible?Rozs said:Is the word "Purgatory" present in any version of the Bible?
Nope.... but you have yet to prove that the concept of Purgatory in non-biblical.... you've only attempted to disprove the use of the word "Purgatory".Is Bible lacking some important information about salvation?
Again.... it has not been added.... it's right there in the Bible..... if you read about a "small winged bird with web feet", but don't read the word "duck" in the story would you then deny the existance of a duck? You make no sense Rosz.We must never exceed on the things that are written. We must not add another doctrine such as Purgatory.
Hoo boy.... Christian apologists 101....... don't waste your time posting something that your opponent has already explained:The refiner's fire in MAL 3:2 is not the PURGATORY!
Now Rosz..... lets see if you can find the correct information to cut and paste on these items that you ignored last time:SOGFPP said:Correct..... it is LIKE a refiners fire..... that passage is used as an example to explain the principle.... it is not meant as as evidence for purgatory per se.
NetDoc said:So Rozs,
Did you ask the question to get an answer or did you already have an answer and just wanted a fight?
The Roman Catholic Church does not accept "Sola Scripture" as the end all. He quoted from their writings and that should be sufficient for them. Now if you couched your "troll" in a different fashion this would be different. As it is, it appears you bushwhacked the man. Hey, I disagree with him completely about purgatory, but I won't resort to this type of bait and switch to do it.
SOGFPP: Thanks for telling us why the Catholics believe what they do.
SOGFPP said:On purgatory:
Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.
Purgatory is like a refiners fire (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.
At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christs Body and having thereby received Gods supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.
......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.
Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.
Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:
Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)
In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)
In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)
Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)
The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.
fromtheheart,fromthe heart said:Scott...I've not read the scriptures you posted here but I will...I do, however, have a question...if this be the case then why did the one who died on the cross with Jesus go to Glory upon his death...wouldn't he have been sent to purgatory instead if this is what we are to believe? But Jesus said that on that day the man would be with Him in heaven? Am I missing something? I really still do not understand this in-between place of redemption. Is there anything further that would point to this place? Thank you.
Hi Scott...I'm not trying to say what you believe is wrong or that as a christian non-catholic that I must accept this way. I'm just looking at it as if I no nothing at all. Your airplane thingy is real creative but this is my way of thinking prior to reflecting back to your purgatory issue. I see us standing there before the Lord and with some sin still on our hands with our heads hanging and prior to entering into the kingdom of heaven having to explain these sins, I see also that Jesus has a book where my name is written and that He is also showing me the ways of my life that include these sins but for the things I did for Him He is offering me crowns to lay at His feet...if they are few I am in shame I'd not done more. If I've lost reward before Him and have nothing to lay at His feet then I'm ashamed but not prevented from the kingdom because of that little book called the Lambs Book of Life...my name is there...God knew when it was written there if I was worthy of this and just what I'd do the rest of my life and that I would fall by the wayside by times...but He also knew that because of His love I'd repent and try my best to do things to glorify His Holy name. We will not just walk into heaven without a full account of our entire life;good OR bad.SOGFPP said:fromtheheart,
Thank you for the question.....
Let me start by saying that this thread and my opinions on Purgatory are in no way meant to challenge any non-Catholics to believe. I honestly thought Rosz was just trying to learn about the RCC, and like NetDoc pointed out, Rosz was just trying to start a debate.
I really don't think that belief in Purgatory is something that YOU personally need as a Christian..... I mean that it's not "required" for your salvation.... so believe it or don't. The reason I do, is that it clears up many issues about sin and the consequences of sin in relation to my salvation.
Christ died on the cross for my sins, yes..... but it did not perfect me... I continue to sin.... so, what I came up with is this:
I believe that Christ died for my sins, he opened up heaven for me, but I don't think Christ gave me a free pass to live however I want and get into heaven based on my faith in Him...... heck, the Bible tells us that even the Devil believes in Him!
- My sins are meaningless, they have no punishment, and I get into heaven anyhow because of my faith in Christ, no matter if I live my life as a murdering porn star.
- Or... my sins DO have consequences and I must pay the penalty for transgressing against our loving God.
Let me use an analogy that might help explain my views and then I'll get to your question:
We're taking a plane ride to heaven. Ok? You walk up to the ticket counter to pay for your ticket...... and you are suprised to find out that Jesus Christ has already paid in full for your ride to heaven.... nice fella, that Jesus
So..... you're all set, right? Going to heaven.... a free ride. You've got a lifetime of stuff (sin) in your bags and on your person..... but no matter, you've got you're free ticket, paid for by the Savior.
But wait..... what's this? You have your ticket, your bag full of guns and knives (your sins) and see the security checkpoint up ahead. Uh oh. ......" but Jesus bought my ticket..... let me on the plane!"...... but you know you are never going to get on that plane...... nothing imperfect gets into heaven.
So, if one is to be honest, and knows that you can not stand before God unless you are perfect..... and Christ died for us, but yet we are still sinners (imperfect).... how does one get into heaven and stand before God? Some will say that we become perfect AFTER our death because of our faith.... why? how? Christ's death was ineffectual on this earth, but only works upon our death..... I think that's ridiculous.
Oh well... let me get to your question:
I believe the theif on the cross is a great example of the need for Purgatory.... suprised?
We don't have the opportunity to look the Son of God in the face an hour before our death and have our salvation assured by the lips of the Savior. Christ said it, it was done. Period.... but we have a bit different circumstance in our life.
So, unless any of you out there have a time machine and are planning on dying on a cross next to a Jew 2,000 years ago.... we better get a better idea of salvation!
Scott
NetDoc said:Somehow, I don't think I Timothy 6:12 includes trolling. You can still treat people with respect, rather than look like you are merely picking a fight. You just look like someone shadow boxing.
Here is the best way to "Fight the good fight of the faith."
John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Don't mistake intolerance as a Christian value. You won't find it listed here:
Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
NetDoc said:You know,
It always pains me when ANYONE uses scriptures to justify their bad behavour. You weren't "speaking the truth in love". You spoke to entrap and with less than honorable intentions. You do a diservice to all who call themselves Christian. Such behavour is worthy only of rebuke and not twisting scripture to justify it.
You obviously had an agenda, and it was unChristian to lie and pretend "gee, what's Purgatory?", when you knew all along what it was......... so get Biblical, have some fun here on the forums.... just know that you won't fool me again.... and in trying to do so you lost my respect, and the respect of at least one or two of your non-Catholic Christians as well.Rozs said:Can we talk about Purgatory. I heard that Purgatory is one of the teachings of the R. Catholic church. Can we talk about it?
What is Purgatory?
Thanx